Stipe Miocic -- time to drop?

Is it time to let Stipe slide down the rankings?  It's been over 4 years since getting a win over someone currently relevant.

We all know the Cormier wins were good at the time.  Are they still enough to hold such a lofty spot on a rankings list dated April 2022?

What say you?  :)

* Edited at 04.25.2022, 7:39 PM ET *

I rank MMARanks as the top troll on the site. I hope he is anyway. If not someone should 302 this dude. Nice fellow. I like him and his attitude actually. That said, worse non sensical rankings I’ve ever seen. Honestly, they’re silly. 

Let's hope so.  The reality is, sometimes guys with similar recent records don't always mean a fight will turn out exciting between them, but I certainly love seeing two even sets of credentials go up against each other.

Funny story about Mousasi and the hope for good matches... 

Back in the day, while consulting for King Of the Cage Canada, they asked me to pick an opponent for Denis Kang.  I went with Gegard Mousasi because I had them ranked side by side.  It was in the works but a Japanese org named Dream hijacked it, and made it happen, (likely for much more money than KOTCC would've been able to offer).  haha.

Mousasi ended up choking Kang out within 5 minutes, so it just goes to show that you never know in this silly game, what will play out.  :)

I think his ranking kinda proves that you shouldn't have algarisim with no personal opinion on ranking or judging, it just doesn't work or you need a better algarisim that more accurant
 
If a ranking isn't on who a better fighter, Then is it a good ranking? Because at the end of the day, That is the point of ranking fighters

In their respective division, Dustin Poirer is 25, Justin Gaeche is 29, Max Holloway is 15, Brian Ortega is 35, Aljamain Sterling 21, Rob Whitaker is 32, , Francis Ngannu is 8, Petr Yan is 7, And Isreal Adesanya is 4. It just doesn't  factually make sense as all theses fighter fought fighters above them on this ranking,  they're literally get a few murder charge 

The craziest one is Nunes is 6 at batamweight, And is 2nd pound 4 pound, How does that make sence, 5 batamweight women better then Nunes, But only Valentina is better pound 4 pound

* Edited at 04.30.2022, 12:51 AM ET *

Hi Damien,

Hopefully you're not stressing out too much about some random stranger's MMA rankings.  Life is too short.  :)

I see a few weeks ago you submitted a ranking that said Sam Alvey was the #1 LHW.  I guess you are just having fun on here.  I suppose it's not that important in the grand scheme of things when you think about it.

Anyway, about my Amanda Nunes ranks... you see, Amanda has recent fights in two divisions.  While I have her around 6 in the BW division, I believe, I also have her high up on the FW list because of some solid wins there too.

Some people keep their divisional rankings separated.  I am one of those.  One of the founders of Tapology recently said they were considering allowing everyone to rank fighters in more than one division, so who knows... we might see that soon.  I'm getting ready for it.  haha.

So anyway, when I combined Nunes' 6 rank as a BW and her 3rd rank as a FW, I went with her at #2 on the pound for pound list.  Don't forget that Nunes is still technically the UFC FW champion, and we know how you love Champions at the top of lists, so you should be proud of me.  LOL.

Have a good one.

* Edited at 04.30.2022, 2:29 AM ET *

@MMARanks Your rankings are great! They make me think, how would some of these top UFC ranked fighters do against fighters ranked above them in your rankings. I think that rankings do not have much to do with who will win a fight but they are fun to look at.  For example, I recently rewatched Burns vs. Khamzat (#11 versus #2)  and it made me wonder how other fighters ranked 11 would do versus others fighters ranked 2.

For example:

HW - (11) Pavlovich vs. (2) Miocic
LHW - Krylov vs. Jiri
MW - Imavov vs. Cannonier
WW - Chiesa vs. Edwards
LW - Tsarukyan vs. Poirier
FW - Yusuff vs. Ortega
BW - Edgar vs. Dillashaw
FlW - Elliot vs. Kara-France

In my opinion even though these matchups might not make sense, the majority of these bouts would be similarly tightly contested like Burns/Khamzat. How many of the elevens would beat twos? Who knows.

I'm with you.  I don't look at rankings as a list of who would beat who.

For me, it's a collection of accomplishments, measured and compared to other collections of accomplishments.

In some sports they're called rankings, standings, leaderboards, etc, but I can't think of any sport that does theirs based on who would beat who.

I guess some writers do something called "power rankings" that aim to be predictive, but that's never how the official rankings of the sport are done.   

I know and understand that what I produce isn't the "regular" way people look at MMA lists, but it may be because of the nature of how the UFC works.  Matches and rankings can stem just as easily from a post-fight "call out" as often as actual accomplishments.


I'm loving what the PFL is headed towards.  A sporting structure that says:  If you do this, it's worth this many points, then we advance the people with the most points.  That's how legit sports work.  No talent evaluations, result predictions, or self-promotion on the microphone... just win, baby.  :) 

* Edited at 04.30.2022, 7:16 PM ET *

Yes that’s why I really like the PFL. I’m going to look at your rankings and see where the PFL fighters land. I suspect the champions will be at the top of the other participants. 

And I dislike power rankings that are so popular amongst NFL media. 

Bro, How is Phil Hawes more acomplish or better in any catergrie better then Isreal Adensaya or Rob Whitaker

Or Bellator heavyweight coming off loses like Tyrel Forturn and Said Sowma being better or more accomplshe the Francis Ngganu

Same with all you top 8 batamweight more acomplished or better then Petr Yan, Aljamain Sterling, Jose Aldo, TJ Dillashow,Cory Sandhagen etc

Or 14 other featherweight more acomplished or better then Max Holloway

Or 20 something more accomplish then Dustin Poirer and Justin Gaeche

You put way to much effort in a ranking system that make no sense at all, 

* Edited at 05.01.2022, 1:17 AM ET *

The major flaw in your ranking is that you trying to make a ranking system like other sports, When MMA(and Boxing) isn't like other sport,Fighters fight on average twice a year, Not like every week like every other sport ,So the way you rank fight just doesn't make any sense and you trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, And in turn just getting more problem

Also, using other criteria other then fighter above is better then fighter bellow just don't make sense, That literally the point of ranking fighter, 

* Edited at 05.01.2022, 1:07 AM ET *

Hey Damien.  I hope you're doing well.

Listen, it's obvious the way I want to do my rankings is not a way that you like.  That's fine.

I want to do them like other sports do them, (my system is largely modelled after the systems that are used in professional tennis, golf, auto racing and others with rolling timeframes instead of seasons).  It is also very close to how this site does its regional rankings as well, so to some, it may be interesting to see the regional-style results with all organizations included.  Obviously you don't find the results interesting, and that's 100% OK.  I honestly never asked anyone to like them, so outside opinion is interesting... but I'm just going to do my thing regardless.

I could explain in greater detail how one person lands above another, but I don't honestly think you want to have an open-minded discussion and hear the answers.  That's cool, but there's really no use in continuing to discuss it.  I don't think I understand why you choose to keep talking about it.  I realize you mentioned some mental health issues you're dealing with.  Hopefully you can move past this discussion and on to something more soothing.  It's only some stranger's way of ranking MMA... it's not really important at all.  :)

Perhaps you might post your rankings, as a point of reference to see how a different person's criteria produces different results and that might be a discussion.  You seem passionate about rankings but haven't posted many of your own.  I notice you have Sam Alvey as the best LHW in the world.  Maybe you'd like to talk about that?

Anyway, this thread was really supposed to be about discussion of Stipe Miocic and whether or not it was time to look at sliding him down in everyone's different approach to their rankings.  What are your thoughts on that?

I know you prioritise activity, but surely if you beat someone recently you should be ahead of them in the rankings. Thats pretty simple. Also how is Oleg Popov number 4 ha, yeah he's active but the quality of competition is nothing compared to something like Ngannous streak. Man beats several fighters you have ahead of him and yet for some reason they're above him.

* Edited at 05.01.2022, 3:14 AM ET *

The thing about MMA ranks is that he's so nice that you fell bad for making fun of him of his horrible MMA takes, He's ranking is so bad, But he also try's harder then everyone else doing his ranking, So that makes it so much worst, At least my Sam Alvey number 1 light heavyweight or Fisty pound 4 pound rankings are troll ranking. 

Also, The thing about being open minded, Is that you shouldn't listen to stupid idea, If someone told you to eat ****, You wouldn't just eat **** just to be "open minded", Because it obvious eating **** is gross, That the same thing with you ranking, I can see you rankings and they just don't make any sense, It generally look like pick random fighters names out of a hat, So it fact that the way you rank fights just don't make sense

The thing is that I don't care about fighter ranking that much, But it hard not to talk about a guy talking about his ranking and his ranking system being better, While he has Bellator heavyweight off lose over the UFC heavyweight champion, It just so stupid that you can just not mention it, it like if someone say’s they have they own system to pick fights, and only pick fight  correct 52% of the time,  you bully them 

* Edited at 05.01.2022, 4:53 AM ET *

I'm very confused about how many comments are being made hating on this ranking system. I'm not 100% positive but I think the rankings are supposed to me made your own. Meaning you can rank the fighters however you feel like. It's for fun. And if he likes making his rankings, I don't see how that hurts anything. 

Maybe you like commenting on how much things trigger you, I can relate to that too. But I think we get the point guys, you don't appreciate his rankings system.

Wait... you think you're bullying me?

I was just being nice to you because judging by the way you try to form sentences, I figured you were either 3/4 mentally handicapped or 12 years old.

I don't debate algorithms with someone who can't even spell algorithm.

You won't find me saying my ranking system is better than any other one.  I never even asked anyone to look at it or comment on it.  If this forum didn't automatically post it, I would've continued keeping it to myself and not talking about it at all.

I thought it was pretty obvious that this was a discussion on whether people who ranked Miocic highly thought it might be time to slide him down.  The fact that you didn't pick up on that tells us all we need to know.

I guess that's why there are so few discussions about rankings on this site that puts a big focus on its rankings engine.  People probably don't want to deal with the President of the Sam Alvey fan club trying to put words together in the right order in their discussions.

Now you're probably dying to (try to) write some clever reply, because you're just not mentally strong enough to just move on to some other topic.  So go ahead... you know you're not smart enough to move on without replying, so show us how mentally weak you are and write that reply.  You know you can't make yourself stop.

MMA Ranks takes a big heel turn 

I was just kinda hoping to get everyone's thoughts on when it might be time to slide Stipe down.  
The site automatically put my rankings up, and it steered away from the discussion I was attempting to have, but to reply to your post...

I set up my rankings differently.  I know they're different and I really never asked anyone to accept them as "better" than anyone else's.  I just wanted to find something out, and my system gives me what I want.  For what it's worth, when I was sending my results out to some of the right people, I know of at least 3 fighters I helped get into the UFC, so I'm just gonna keep on doing my thing and totally understand if some people choose to ignore them.  It's all good.

If UFC ran their matchmaking like every other major sport, the structure of the matches would align with a ranking done in this style and the results would line up perfectly.  As we know, the UFC makes matches pretty randomly, so people's desire to see the winner above the loser of a recent match isn't going to work in this system.  It's totally fine if you don't like that.  I'm not here to make people like my system.  It's obviously take it or leave it.

A relevant example would be the PFL.  They have set up a system that is more in line with legit sporting principle.  Certain things are assigned certain values ahead of time, and the results determine the total values and the rankings.  There is also a timeframe assigned to it.  The ranking results are right there on the ESPN website.  I don't think there is anyone in a debate about them.

Under the PFL system Denis Goltsov is currently tied for first in the standings and Ante Delija is in 4th place.  Now people can be upset that Delija is lower than someone he recently beat but you kinda just have to absorb what's being measured and choose to accept or ignore it.  Either one is fine, but getting upset about it doesn't really get you anywhere.  haha

Klidson Abreu just beat Adam Keresh so is ahead of him in the standings.  I assume we're all good with that.  If Keresh wins his next fight in the 2nd round and Abreu loses his next match in a razor close decision, Keresh will be ranked above Abreu, (someone he recently lost to).  You can be mad, or say it doesn't make sense or that it's ****... whatever you want, but sports, (when done legitimately), generally use a body of work from a certain timeframe to establish its rankings, so from a sporting principle, that's how it goes.

The Pittsburg Pirates beat the San Diego Padres last night, but they're not ahead of them in the standings.

I know we all get it.  The concern is often, "MMA is not baseball".  Cool.
I'm doing a ranking that is done the in the same fashion as the overwhelming majority of all sport.  I'm not sure why that would bother anyone.  It's not even important to me that anyone like it.  I never asked anyone to.  I'm just a guy doing my thing to get a new perspective.  :)

Since you took the time to ask, I guess I could be courteous enough to answer.  So here goes...  :)

The system I set up is a 3-year window measuring win/loss success rates against opponents' win/loss success rates.  It has no personal bias injected.  If Fighter A beats a 2-0 opponent, and Fighter B beats a 1-0 opponent, Fighter A generally gets more value... but not always.

The extra catch is, since this is applied to everyone dynamically all at the same time, there is a trickle-down effect.  Fighter A beats 6 opponents with a combined record of 20-6 and Fighter B beats 6 opponents with a combined record of 20-6, but the records of your opponents' opponents is also being measured, so the success rates of your opponents and everyone they are attached to comes into play.
 
If you beat a 2-0 opponent, but that opponent is 2-0 because he beat two people with a combined record of 0-40, it's not going to be worth much.

OK, so to Popov vs Francis comparison...

I capped everyone's 3-year profile at their best 6 gains and all of their losses.  This was to prevent anyone from climbing the list simply by volume.  An average of 2 fights per year over a 3-year span is what I decided would be fair to everyone.

Tapology uses similar parameters for their regional rankings, though I think they use a 5-year window with gradual time decay.  Popov is Tapology's #1 Russian HW out of the 276 they have on record.  That's actually how I found out the guy even existed.  :) 

So with that cap of best 6 gains, Popov is 6-0.  Six gains and no deductions.
Not counting their loss to Popov, his opponents are a combined 27-6 in the last 3 years, so statistically speaking, these are not easy people to beat, which we would assume Tapology's formula picked up on as well, when he calculated out to be #1 in his country.  Ironically, today being the beginning of May 2022, Popov's best win, (over an otherwise 9-0 fighter), expires today so we'll see Popov dip when I run it next.

N'Gannou is 4-0 in the last 36 months.  So with a 6-gain cap, that's four gains and two blanks.
Not counting their loss to N'Gannou, his opponents are a combined 15-5 in the last 3 years.

Quick summary:
Popov = 6 gains against opponents who are otherwise 84% successful.
N'Gannou = 4 gains against opponents who are otherwise 75% successful.

That's the overview anyway.  Thanks for asking.

We know that some will want a skill or talent assessment added in, or an organizational boost, but I guess that's why everyone is free to do the lists they way they want.  :)

I'm well aware that my style is not for everyone, but at least it's precisely applied to all 293 HWs I have in the system so far.  I'm not sure some of the other methods of ranking could accurately apply other factors so unilaterally, but the good news is, we have all kinds of different methodology at our disposal.  Ignoring mine is certainly an option.  LOL.

Peace.

I literally laughed out loud.  That was classic.  You may have won the internet today.  Kudos.

I'm all for being polite, but if you're gonna faux-brag about how you're bullying me...  I guess I gotta go NWO Hulk Hogan.

(Hopefully I got that reference correct.  My wrasslin' is a little rusty).  :)

Bro, Even if you were to drop Stipe a bit lower in the ranking, I'm not against it, Drop him to about 7, that make sense,  But you put him ranked at 83. 


Dude you rank ******* 43 year old Fedor, Dontell Mayes,Lois Herriqe, Parker Porter, Josh Parision, Rodigo Naccimato, Shamil Abdurakoha,  above Stipe, That ******* ********, Stipe is not in his prime, But he would literally murder all those people I listed that you rank above him

Also, Expecting people to take you seriously when you have Francis Ngannu at number 8, All behind people he beat or Oleg Popuv, Said Sowma and Tyrell Forturn, It literally impossible to have a discussion when you have ranking so bad just shove into your face, Francis literally clearly beat you number 1 guy with a torn ACL 3 or 4 month ago, 

I still think Stipe will still  beat Oleg Popuv, Said Sowma, Jairzionho Rozenstuck and Tyrell Forturn btw, And there in you top 10

* Edited at 05.01.2022, 4:47 PM ET *