Tapology Talks: Books

Here you go Griffy! Let's talk books!

My fav book



Anyone else read this? If not, I suggest if you're into the whole post-apocalyptic genre then this is for you. 

* Edited at 03.10.2015, 2:15 PM ET *

Lots of good stuff on this thread.

BIG game of thrones fan. More the books then the show
Dragon lance has its ups and downs- big Advocate of gods that forget that they are gods :)

"Dies the fire" series S M Stirling- if you like down to earth types of fantasy, and taking place in modern time and people, with apocalypse events strewn into the mix- its for you!!!

And of course, the classic Lord Of The Rings/ JRR Tolkien is the way to go. Movies arent bad but the books are incredible.

And I almost forgot the sword of truth series as well- amazing series of book, terrible show, minus all the hotties they put in their for the mord sith and Kahlan

* Edited at 03.10.2015, 3:35 PM ET *

Thats my 2 cents at any rate ^

In show canon I think it's pretty clear to draw the conclusion that Oberyn was/is the best fighter by far. Considering the Hound basically lost to Brienne, and the fact that he is weary of Gregor. Then the fact that Oberyn outclassed Gregor so easily before what I believe he sacrificed himself. Crazy you say? Let's review the evidence. 

During Tyrion's trial maester pycelle says a poison was stolen that would make you **** until you died and your corpse would be the worst smelling thing ever. Who is in KL at the time and is a master of poisons? Oberyn. The problem is that Oberyn wants true revenge, the downfall of the LANNISTER empire. But he has not the power to do so as he is not the king of dorne. So all that is left for him is to kill the 2 people he holds responsible. 

Now, back to those poisons, varys mentions to Jaime that just before the trial by combat Tywin was eating in his chambers with mace and Oberyn. It is here I believe he poisoned Tywin with that same poison pycelle said was stolen.

Now to the fight with the mountain, as his blades were poisoned as well once he landed the first blow on the mountain the red viper knew that his mission was complete. Tywin and Gregor were both dead men. But what would be the one and only way for dorne to actually rise up in full rebellion against the throne? Oberyns death. So he sacrificed himself. 

This is why tyrion finds Tywin on the toilet, and why Tywin provoked him to kill him. Further supported by the numerous comments about tywins smell at his funeral.

As far as book canon, as griffy pretty much proved, Arthur dayna is really a class above Barristan. But I still would argue that Aemon the Dragonknight is the best among them all.

Beerfest

@messiah, a pretty common theory. I don't know that I buy into it, but it is interesting and I'm glad you're familiar with it. :) My favorite series and I love all the fan theories.  Saying Sandor "basically lost to Brienne" isn't an insult. The show has shown us multiple times that Brienne is a beast of a warrior (defeating Loras, defeating a depleted Jaime). Gregor was also unhorsed by Loras in S1 - if we're talking about overall skills tourney performances must be taken into account. I think there are 4 or 5 that can be talked about as GOAT. Show and books obviously differ. 

Show - Sandor - Brienne - 2 handed Jaime - Oberyn. All valid choices, you could event argue a few others (Jaquen - Syrio - Bronn)

Book - Barristan - Arthur Dayne - Aemon the Dragonknight - Prime Bobby B (in no particular order.)


edit: Also, Sandor is only weary of Gregor because he burnt the ******* **** out of his face as a kid. It's also heavily implied that he killed their sister. So I don't think his weariness is due to Gregor's supreme warrior abilities. It's the fact that he's Sandor's big brother who's picked on, and tortured him his entire life. 

* Edited at 03.10.2015, 4:48 PM ET *

@theMMAmessiah, I have heard that theory before and I am still unsure of it for the following reason. Oberyn was well known to have an extensive knowledge of poisons, one would think that he also had a large inventory of them too. Why would he need to steal from Pycelle and leave a trail?

While this theory holds well enough that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, I believe it falls apart at the part of Oberyn "sacrific[ing] himself". Before the trial by combat (I'm going to be paraphrasing, I don't feel like going through the book to find the actual word for word quotes), Oberyn says 'Today is not the day I die' and when his paramour Ellaria Sand tells him to not die, he promises he won't. Why not be more truthful during these moments if he was planning of sacrificing himself?

I believe he just got lost in the heat of the moment and neglected to realize just how dangerous Gregor really was.

I also don't believe Tywin encouraged Tyrion to kill him. Throughout Tyrion's entire life Tywin was always able to control him and punish him when he disobeyed. Multiple times during Tyrion's like Tywin told him he wasn't allowed to do something, unless he left the Lannister family and fund whatever he wanted by myself, and always Tyrion never left - also staying under the control of his father.

I thought about Aemon the Dragonknight, but unfortunately there is very little known about him, even in The World of Ice and Fire. His death is the reason why I believe Arthur Dayne to be better. Aemon died in combat against 2 brothers from a moderate house, sworn to House Baratheon - House Toyne.

@michigandolphin, Gregor was unhorsed by Loras during the tournament because Loras' horse was in heat. The only skills I believe that translate well from tourney to actual combat are melee's won. Thoros is a good example of this.

* Edited at 03.10.2015, 5:54 PM ET *

Does anyone read graphic novels or comics? My favourite graphic novel that I read would be The Watchmen. The layers to the story are incredible.

I have been into a few graphic novels, the latest I read was The Sandman Vol 1 Preludes and Nocturnes 

@flying_frontkick that's a great starting point.

I could go deeper into the theory but it seems like you're both at least familiar. I think the evidence in the text makes it pretty much certain that he did infact poison Tywin, it's pretty irrefutable once you stack it all up. The sacrifice of himself though is more conjecture I'll give you that. 

I also think a strong case can be made that Daemon Blackfyre is right at the top of the list as well. There was really no way he could escape his death.

I also can go in depth like this about a billion different things on GoT, throw something out there and we shall discuss.

I like fantasy but I'm a big fan of sci fi, I love Asimov books, I like Orson sci fi books?Scott Card, I think a planet called treason is vastly underrated. is anyone here a fan of sci fi?

That's another thing we have in common, @leg, I love sci-fi, Asimov, Scott-Card, Herbert.

Have you read 'The Last Question'???

http://www.physics.princeton.edu/ph115/LQ.pdf


EDIT:  Oh, and the first thing we have in common is the love of hot boobies, but you already knew that.

* Edited at 03.11.2015, 3:27 PM ET *

New Euron = Daario breakdown vid. I don't personally buy into it. I think the producers of the show are just trolling. But there is some fantastic evidence to support it. 

No I don't buy it at all, all the evidence it has is equally explained by D&D wanting to eradicate the Greyjoy story but still keep the same plot. 

I personally think the Starks are descendants of the White Walkers. This is a theory that has been mostly crafted by myself as opposed to the community. But I have a lot of strong evidence to support it. 

I'd be interested in hearing it. 

Well first of all, the Starks are always saying that 'Winter is Cumming' and personally I think 'Winter' is a good name for a White Walker.

Here is the outline of my theory:

Throughout the text you are bombarded with occurences of The Starks and people North of the wall having similarities. We've also seen from the show that the White Walkers have the ability to transform a human baby into a white walker. So who is to say that they can't do the exact opposite?

I believe that the war of the first men and the children of the forest/white walkers ended with a treaty of some sorts and it hinged upon the fact of the White Walkers getting their own family to rule all of the  North or basically all the area South of the wall. This would perfectly explain not only their words "winter as coming" as not just a warning of the seasons, but a reminder that Winter comes for all who oppose them as well as explaining why there must "always be a Stark in Winterfell." 

I mean after all, what started the first White Walker threat in thousands of years? I hardly believe it just happens to coincide with almost the exact point that no Starks remain in Winterfell.

But the theory does not even come close to stopping there. What other happenings could this explain if it were true? Oh I don't know, how about what really happened to Benjen Stark? Benjen wouldn't have ran while his 2 brothers were killed. And I don't think had he survived and gotten away that he wouldn't have went back to the wall. But what I could see that if the White Walkers, noticing the features of Benjen and seeing who he was, either taking him prisoner, or more likely explaining the end all be all truth to him somehow that he is now an agent for them. I also believes this fits as there is only supposed to be 2 books left and we have literally no information or knowledge of their motivations or their ultimate goal. One speech from Benjen about what he's been up to the past 3 years could go along way of explaining that.

Then there is Coldhands and the Night's King. Two human wights that still have their brain functions, both of whom are heavily discussed and rumored to be Starks, this theory fits in here as well explaining that why Starks are able to retain their consciousness.

Then finally the last piece to the puzzle is Craster. Why is Craster the one wildling out of all that the White Walkers won't touch? Surely there are more foreboding/powerful wildlings who would love to give up sons in order for peace for themselves. So I ask again, why Craster? Well from the stories from Old Nan, and Mance, and the Reeds, there's a lot of text that suggests more than one Stark has left to live North of the wall, well perhaps Craster is a descendant from one of those very Starks. And the blood in them of the white walkers is why they want his sons, and why they are able to transform them back into white walkers.


More to the point, this story is called "A Song of Ice and Fire" and while many people correlate this to: Jon/Dany, Stark/Targaryen, I think at it's core this is a story of Others/Dragons. Good/Evil. But all we've seen to this point alludes to Dany and her Dragons being heroes and the white walkers being ultimate evil. I think the hints are all there for Dany to become a Mad Targaryen just like her father and ending up with her and her dragons as the true representation of evil for the whole story. And if that is the case that must mean the "Ice" in the story is the Good part of the equation. 

Not to mention of the one thing I am certain of, Melisandre is pure evil and is in direct correlation with "Fire"

But if ice is good and fire is evil, then what about wights? Are wights not both evil and forces of ice and winter?