Not Finishing Fights

Is it just me or does it seem like a majority of UFC fights go the distance when compared to other organizations??

I did a little research and looked at the results from the last few UFC fights compared to the last few Strikeforce fights and going just off the main cards the UFC has just over 50% of the fights go to a decision where Strikeforce only had about 13% go the distance.

I have 3 ideas about this:

1) Joe Silva sucks at match making...plain and simple.
2) The UFC fighter are all at the top of the sport and are so equally matched that they cant finish each other.
3) The fighters in the UFC are only concerned with winning thus resulting in more guys using the takedown method of victory aka Lay n Pray.

Thats what I came up with. I think #2 in nonsense myslef, I mean Strikeforce, Dream, K1, Bellator, they all have great fighters. I think #1 and 3 are possibilities though. 1 speaks for itself and if you think about 3 it make sense. Think of all the fighter using wrestling to take people down and then not doing anything with it, Koscheck, GSP, Sonnen, Shields, Griffin and Demetrious Johnson just did it in the last UFC to earn the victories. Anyway this is getting long winded so Ill shut up and see what you guys think.

*note* Im a fan of GSP, Kos, and Griffin, as well as, the UFC so Im not just being a hater.

Let me see if I can wrassle up some more complete statistics for you. We've got a pretty beefy database here.

Will say that I'm a big supporter of Joe Silva and how the UFC matches fights. There's always something to complain about, but I think they do a way better job than anyone else. They keep setting the bar higher and higher.

Smart game planning isnt always exciting.  People are always going to be concerned with getting the W but sometimes you just cant finish the other person without putting yourself in too much danger.
Gsp is often looking for something and always hitting when he has top control thats not lay and pray.Sonnen landed more hits on silva that the rest of his time in the ufc combined. thats not lay and pray
I think you need to revise your definition of lnp.
Just because people dont finish doesnt mean they arent attempting to do so.

good call gregory, how many matches have they made that people *****ed about until the fight happened? 
Joe silva does deserve more credit

That would be awesome Gregory. Id like to see a more in depth look at the stats.

I guess I should revise #1.I was just thinking about it and a lot of these fights look great on paper. They just don't play out well and Silva can't be faulted for that.
Maybe it should be the other way. The fight makers from other orgs arent do as good as Joe Silva and so we end up with uneven matches that result in quick KO's or subs??


Piercerdan you made a good point about GSP he does actually try to finish so he was a bad example. I stick by Sonnen though. I wouldn't call what he did "trying to finish". Don't get me wrong he worked non stop but he wasn't doing much damage throwing mostly short punches and elbows from the ground. That's not trying to finish that's staying active so you don't get the stand up.

The UFC and casual American fans love wrestlers and dumb brawlers and wrestlers don't make for entertaining fights and dumb brawlers aren't winning anymore. Unfortunately, most wrestlers are extremely good athletes so they generally get to impose their will, which is usually wrestling to a decision victory. Europeans love striking and Japo's love jiu jitsu so other global promoters get fights with fighters that finish. Also, Pride has better rules when it was around with longer fights that were judged for overall preformance. Sometimes they even used "gracie" rules which meant the fight had to end in a sub or KO or it would keep on going. Three five minute rounds work out well for ADD fans.

Joe Silva is an incredible matchmaker.  I think the main reason so many UFC fights go to decisions is because of the level of competition.  Most fighters in the UFC are pretty well rounded now which makes them harder to finish.  Joe tries to match up fighters who he thinks can compete with each other, he's not just feeding the weak to the strong.

There are other things that could cause fighters to fight safe like fighters just fighting to win because Dana can be quick to release fighters after a loss.  But Dana also rewards the fighters who put on a good show with bonuses.  Fighters who aren't entertaining to watch seem to get passed over for title shots until they have a streak that can't be ignored.

This is all just speculation though, who knows really..

@ronin here is some data for you.

I pulled only fights from 2008 and newer, and only main card fights (no prelims). Reason I did this is because Strikeforce prelims are often filled with random local fighters and I didn't think that was fair to include.

Strikeforce Finishes (182 main card fights)
- 33% Decision
- 26% Submission
- 41% KO/TKO

WEC Finishes (97 main card fights)
- 39% Decision
- 31% Submission
- 30% KO/TKO

UFC Finishes (326 main card fights)
- 44% Decision
- 19% Submission
- 36% KO/TKO

Let me know if you want to see anything else. If I'm in a giving mood I can get pretty much anything.

In reality a minuscule difference between the two. The truth of the matter your #2 is the main reason this is true. Usually what separates the great from the good are defensive abilities. Don't kid yourself on average UFC competition is much higher than anywhere else. A lot of new comers are champions in smaller orgs. Guys who are undefeated with 100% finishing rate getting beat or not being able to finish UFC fighters.

I'll say this Joe Silva is the best match maker in the business and always has been. He often works ways to make the most relevant fights possible given time and injuries. Aside from the occasional big money fight there is little to complain about. Also UFC rarely sets up squash fights that are often commonplace in other organizations. 

Also LnP is not the only way for a fight to go the distance. Take Andre Winner for example, the guy is a striker, in his 16 pro fights he's only been able to finish 5 opponents. Four of those 5 finishes happened in his first year as a pro. In the last 3 years he has had 12 fights and 1 finish. Where accused LnP artist Fitch has had 10 fights and 2 finishes in 3 years. This is just one example but I know plenty of fights that never hit the ground and go the distance.  Amir Sodallah is another example, he's a great striker but has only finished 1 opponent since leaving TUF. 

I would like to add finishing your opponent is the safest way of winning a fight. The longer you spend in the ring the more chance you have of being finished yourself. LnP is the least safe way of guaranteeing a win, because one you have to leave it in the hands of the judges, two you also risk gassing late and getting taken over against well conditioned opponents, three there is always a chance of getting caught.   

Greg,

A little bit of forum jumping, but since we're on the topic of random stats, is there any way you could find the number of 0-1 fighters out there? I see so many guys records littered with three or four of these one and out guys and would be curious to see the results. (also it would give more relevance to my, "I'd rather be 0-8 than 0-1 tag line...")

Mark - this is one area where our data might not be the best source. We've got profiles here as of this morning for 2,525 fighters, and it's growing fast, but still not nearly all of the MMA fighters out there. We've got everyone who has ever competed in UFC/Bellator/WEC/Pride/Strikeforce/Dream/Sengoku/IFL/EliteXC and a bunch of other televised events. And then Northeast US is the first area where we are adding local fighters.

As long as you understand that part of it, out of the 2,525 fighters:

0-1: 137
0-2: 32
0-3: 17
0-4: 11
0-5: 5
0-6 or more: 5

0 and anything: 207

But again there are tens of thousands of other fighters that we don't touch yet. And it's those fighters who I think are more likely to have 0-1, 0-2, etc... records.

Off-topic, but Mark if you don't mind me asking, what was your amateur record?

I think the strikeforce matchmaker is slightly better than silva. I mean they have some pretty interesting matches

Decisions are usually the result of fighters being well matched. Finishes are typically the result of a mismatch - one fighter having a significant advantage over the other. OP's suggestion of bad match making in the UFC is totally invalid.

The question here is akin to wondering why baseball playoff games are usually more competitive than regular season games. It should be self evident that competition at the highest level of the sport will tend towards evenness.

Are the trolls that complain about wrestlers ever going to go away?

@raray - Trolls like us will go away when fighters like Sean Sherk do. Wrestling arguably the foundation to MMA but no one wants to live in a house that's just a basement. Taking someone down and holding them in place until time runs out isn't fighting. Taking someone down and holding them in place until you beat them unconcious or submit them is.

 

@RWLAWMAN - I never fought amateur. I basically took whoever the promoters threw at me in an attempt to get better match ups for my Brother. I know 0-8 look bad but I only regret one loss and would certainly be a bit happier at 1-7

@mark I would take the fight with you to get you to 1-8. but on the condition that it end via submission and that Kevin The Ref is there to save my ass.  you also need to find a way to get down to 155.  i'll start eating donuts to get up to 155.

Greg, let me work on my 85 pounds of baby fat and then we'll talk... I actually have a better match up coming up soon so I hope to improve to 1-8 before I hang it up. Everyone I have ever fought has either held a title and/or been ranked by NorthEastMMA.net and/or has a winning record. The one loss I regret was to Chris Devno. He was 0-3 at the time but a big kid who knew what he was doing. I literally trained 0 for the fight because I was running a painting company at the time and it was mid summer. I bloodied him up pretty good from top guard but the ref stood us up in the middle when he slid under the ropes instead of resetting us. I was gassed at that point, got caught with a knee to the face and that was it. I've been running full blown 3X5's no problem so I anticipate a dominant performance in my final fight.

Back to topic, a think a large reason there are more finishes is mismatches. In the Last strikeforce, all the maincard fights were -300 or bigger if I remember correctly. If a fighter is way better than another, better chance for a finish. Now if Gregory can pull up statistics on the odds in Strikeforce and UFC, I'd be impressed.

151 Strikeforce Fights With Odds Since 1/1/08
-100 to -149: 25 (17%)
-150 to -199: 25 (17%)
-200 to -299: 35 (23%)
-300 to -399: 24 (16%)
-400 to -499: 21 (14%)
-500 to -599: 8 (5%)
-600 and up: 13 (9%)

535 UFC Fights With Odds Since 1/1/08
-100 to -149: 103 (19%)
-150 to -199: 126 (24%)
-200 to -299: 174 (33%)
-300 to -399: 65 (12%)
-400 to -499: 34 (6%)
-500 to -599: 19 (4%)
-600 and up: 14 (3%)

So I'd say this is definitely a revealing way to look at it. Add it up and you see that 28% of Strikeforce fights are -400 or more.  Compared to 13% for the UFC.

You could sort of say that more than twice as many Strikeforce fights are oddsmaker mismatches.  Good question, conman.

Wow, you can pull up some cool statistics. And those are pretty interesting, I guess being a smaller promotion you have to build up fighters more.
Look at fighters like Evangelista Cyborg. 4-6 in his last 10, 18-14 overall. Pretty bad record in all honesty yet he is headlining a strikeforce card. I still definitely enjoy Strikeforce and other promotions, but ultimately I think I'd prefer more even matchups compared to finishes.

Yep when you look at the fighter pages here and see all that info... weight classes, referee, odds, weigh in results, fighter pay...

It's all luscious n' tasty data in our database.

Down the road hopefully we can set it up so that you can click around and get whatever stats you want. Pick from a bunch of drop-down options and then click to see the results.  But that's not for a while, just because there are so many other things we need to do first.  First things first get this site running faster.