Machida vs. Bader

This is the official discussion thread for Machida vs. Bader. Let's see what you've got.

I realize that Bader has yet to have a truly impressive win, but I don't see him being a 12%-88% Tapology underdog. I just think he's better than that, and honestly a big shot from him could change the fight greatly. I'm going with Machida, who I think wins just about everywhere, but I have doubts when someone says he will blast Bader. I just don't see it happening; I see Bader being aggressive and he does have great wrestling and power. Big fan of both, esp. "The Dragon", what a guy. 

Also, I don't think Machida has let up at all. Just because we found out his chin wasn't perfect (against Shogun, btw) or he lost a close one to Rampage doesn't mean anything, he is still elite.

you just explained the reason why Bader is only a12% favorite, I don't this will be a breeze for Machida but he IS better than Bader in all areas. but in the end anything could happen, specially because Bader is definitively not a can

@rock the tapology percentage split is definitely different than the betting odds

in this case even if a lot of people think bader has a chance, they still don't think it's a very good pick, so it ends up at only 12%

@Gregory true, but even -320 to +255 seems a little much to me, I don't know, I guess I just think more of Bader. 

"Machida got beat by Shogun twice."

Though I gave Shogun the first fight it was a close fight. And am unsure what that makes bader better. He gave shogun who one of the best LHW of all time and currently top 5 light heavy weight. Bader would have gotten beat down by Shogun so I not sure what your point is.

 "His fight with Rampage both guys sucked and someone had to win."

Are you kidding me? The Rampage that fought Machida was leaps and bounds better than the one that fought Bader. I mean how on earth does this help your argument?  Rampage that fought bader had a bump knee, stated he spent most of his last weeks of training rehabbing his injured knee and trying to make weight. He was so injuried in his knee he was unable to even exercises enough to make weight. That was the only thing he had been trying to do for like weeks. Machida on the other hand fought an entirely healthy Rampage.  Oh and Bader despite fighting an injured  rampage he still almost got knocked out which rampage never came close to doing to Machida.

So can you please explain to me how on earth this helps your argument for bader?

"He beat a 49 year old Couture. I love Randy but he had no business being in there."

LOL again this is a ridiculous argument.  Bader lost to friggin Tito. How on earth you can state that Randy had no business being in there to  some how discrediting Machida first round finish when Bader lost to Tito by first round submission is downright ridiculous. Randy was a far more legitment contender and would have received a title fight had he won. While bader lost to tito who was one lose removed from force retirement by the UFC............

Randy at 40 years old beat beat Tito with ease everywhere and even start spanking tito who was all but helpless.

Now let’s look at their last 7 fights of both Tito and Randy. Then let’s talk about how Randy having” no business being in there”, because Randy was without a doubt much more relevant then Tito was.

Randy beat Gaberiel Gonzaga to defend his heavy weight belt. He then fought and was even winning against Brock who so much larger then Randy it was equivalent of a friggin Light weight fighting a light heavy weight. Still Randy stuffed his take down and was out striking Lesnar, until he miscalculated a dodge because Lesnar fist are so big that no training partner could simulate them and it caught him in the back of the head. Then we have his fight with Noguria which he lost, but was very competitive against another larger fighter.  Then he beat vera, destroyed Mark Coleman (who had given Shogun fits, and beaten Bonnar), then james toney which was a give me fight and then he lost to lyoto in a fight in which had Randy won he would have received yet another title fight.Then you have Tito last 7 fights in which Lyoto who at the time had the flue and was sick won a one sided decision.  Then he lost to Forrest , then Matt Hamill would beat Tito every round.  Then Tito beat bader by first round submission. Then Rashad would beat Tito into the ground in his next fight which little nog then repeated.  Then Forrest would beat Tito for the second time. Tito prior to that bader win had not beaten someone since 2006 which was Ken Shamrock who was not even remotely an elite fighter at the time or really ever.

Tito ended his last 7 UFC fights going 1 and 6 with his lone win being against Bader. While Couture  went 4 and 3.  He also unlike Tito actually had a UFC belt which he defended and two of his loses come to much larger opponents in a weight class above.  Randy not only had a better record his fight were more competitive even against larger opponents. He had a belt during time period. So how on earth can you try and down play Machida win, while not recognizing the fact Bader got subbed by an opponent far less relevant then couture as well as inferior fighter.

“Jones got hit a few times by Machida but really he just toyed with him until the 2nd round. “

He hit jones more times in a single round than any other title challenger; he also won that round which no one else has really done against Jones including Rampage and shogun. He also was by far the biggest offensive threat to jones and even rocked him. The fact you can down play it to such levels is absurd. Jones was toying with him? Really that your take? Interesting if he was toying with Machida he must have been using dam kid gloves with bader, because bader at no point was remotely a threat and got tossed around like a child.

“I just don't see Machida anywhere near what he was 3 years ago.”

I think you are simply wrong. I think you have very little to back up such a claim and have done nothing but play down Machida.  His knock out of Randy and his offensive assaults on jones a lone prove he still very much the same fighter. I think your statement is absurd and unfounded

“ I think Bader is on the up swing and he seems very motivated to prove that Tito fight was a "fluke." Not saying it was but it seems Bader thinks it was.”

Yet he still got beat by a man who was far less relevant and capable then a fighter you stated “had no business” being in the cage. Interesting  no?

“As far as being "nuthuggery" I sometimes am guilty of that for sure. So are a lot of people. I don't like Machida but that is not why I'm picking Bader. If this was 2009 I would pick Machida by 1st round KO but it's not.”

You’re not even nuthugger, your simply spiteful.  Your not upstaging bader, in fact you brought nothing forward to suggest why bader wins, you merely have focus on down playing Machida to the point of even suggesting he only did well in the first round because “jones was toying with him”. That does not sound like someone who picking bader due to rationally thought out conclusion like you are suggesting. Nor does you feinting unbiasness by suggesting you pick Machida from 3 years ago with implication that Machida is “nowhere near what he was”.  Except you provided no explanation to support such a statement which seems rather telling since you  are implying Machida is significantly inferior to his three years ago self. If such was the case of such notable inferiority why did you provide neither a rational explanation nor any type of comparisons? You merely stated it as a fact yet provided no supporting arguments for such a claim.  Claiming he nowhere near as dominate as three years ago is one thing. That is accurate because he had been champion and undefeated  but to say he simply “not anywhere near “what he was, implies his skill set and abilities are significantly inferior which is misleading.  Because his fall from dominance had nothing to do with not being as good as he previously had been.  It has to do with other being superior. And frankly his worse loss of his career happen within a year of what you suggested was far more superior Machida. Despite the fact that you never provided rational argument for your assumption that Machida skills and abilities had rapidly declined. In fact you presented the notion his abilities and skills had decline as undeniable fact.  Which seems ludicrous especially since he had one of the most dominate knock outs of his career in which he displayed greater arsenal of kicks then he previously shown in his UFC fights.  He also displayed an improved take down defense stuffing an Olympic level Greco wrestler in randy couture. He also showed this outstanding take down defense stuffing Jones, who had prior to that fight had taken almost every single person down with little resistances from even established wrestlers like Matt hammill, bader, vera and Valdimir Matyushenko.  He also displayed incredible speed and timing throughout the first round of his fight with Jones.  Managing to tag Jones repeatedly and win several exchanges which no other tittle challenger prior to Machida had been able to accomplish.  In fact other elite strikers like shogun who had bested machida was incapable of producing any sort of offensive threat to jones. Yet machida was capable of doing this, which seems to directly contradicting your assessment that Machida is significantly inferior now.  For if he was so inferior why would be capable of out preforming the man who took his title when they both squared off against the most dominate LHW Champoin in UFC History?  In fact if he was so inferior like you suggesting, then how was he capable of producing any offenses against the much ranger physical monster that is Jones?  I mean Machida displayed the ability to close the gap quickly repeatedly against a man with 10 inch reach advantage who possibly the most athletic  LHW of all time, that does not scream of someone who lost a step let alone a significant one like you implied.

* Edited at 08.01.2012, 1:03 AM ET *

How on earth can you not like Machida? He's one of the most exciting fighters there is, and certainly one of the most interesting, unusual style and culture and mega respectful. You don't like Machida?!

Have to go with Machida winning a decision. I think he'll keep his distance, and (there it is) be very elusive. Don't  really see Bader getting the takedown during the match, and with Machida being the (by far) better striker, this will cause problems for Bader. I would be thrilled with a finish from Lyoto though.

Only way Bader loses is if Lyoto's piss is off on August 4th.

Wins? I agree.

The 88% doesn't represent how much better than Bader Machida is, it represents how many people think Bader will lose.

Since styles make fights and Bader is very dependent on his wrestling, the fact that Machida is very hard to take down (side stance, speed, great TDD) means that there's a good chance this fight stays on the feet where Machida has a giant advantage over Bader, since he's much faster, has more weapons and specializes in countering slow punchers (Bader is going to throw quite a lot of his signature overhand rights, Machida will be waiting for them).

Bader's just the wrong guy to beat Machida and 88% of the voters think that.

Of course, now that I wrote that Bader's going to take Machida down with ease and G&P him for 15 minutes just to make me look like the ******* that I am :)))

@yossgold oh, I know, but when I see a gap like that and think it's not warranted, it just feels weird. I'm just saying if you asked me before who would win, I would say Machida but would think that with how Machida has been KO'd and rocked that with Bader's heavy hands, wrestling, and knowledge that he will have to be aggressive, he would get more love.

@anik.. your comments and picks are still very much confusing to me... is this the bet thing again?

no that post was a typo LOL

Numb nut.

I know you are but what am I?

A numb nut.

I can't wait for Bader to put the final nail in the coffin that is Lyoto Machida's hype.
The guy got to the top of the division because he had a weird style that no one really knew how to beat and it caught everybody off guard that.
Machida's not near as good as he is made out to be and even though Bader has had a few stumbles he is still a better fighter than Machida and he will prove that Saturday. 

Bader is a better fighter then Machida? that gave me a good lol tell me the last time Bader won the title, and defended it. Dont worry, i'll wait(Katt Williams voice)