Dana says Alistair Overeem top 10 HW is a joke... agree?

"I like Alistair Overeem... he's a cool guy... I think anybody that isn't in the UFC gets overhyped by the media... when's the last time you saw him fight as Strikeforce heavyweight champion... he's not fighting... I actually find it hilarious that he's ranked in the top 10.... what has he done in MMA to be ranked in the top 10?  ... that's what makes the mixed martial arts media so f*cking stupid... that they would even rank this guy in the top 10 in the heavyweight division because he's fighting in K1... that makes absolutely no f*cking sense..."





Agree/disagree?  Where does Alistair rank in HW's?  I'd say he's got to be top 10.  It would be hard to list out 10 guys at HW that would all beat him.

Dana White's "he's not fighting much in MMA" argument has some merit.  But when I make my rankings I tend to look a little bit less at previous matchups, and focus more on what they are capable of doing, and who you would expect them to beat if matched up right now.

And I just can't see most heavyweights beating Alistair. He's a terrible matchup for some of these guys.

Overeem is definite top 5.  Roy Nelson and Brendan Schaub and Josh Branett are not going to beat Overeem.

Sorry Overeem has 1 recent unavenged  top 10 win and that's over Rogers. His only other top 10 win is over Sergei years ago and Sergei has KOed Overeem since. You guys need to stop ranking on potential and look at their actual accomplishments. I know the HW division is weak but not weak enough to put Alistair in the top 5. 

Still, the question is should he be considered in the top 10, which generally means competitive at the elite level. Everyone that has responded in this thread has him there, as high as 3 and as low as 9. We're all judging based on what we THINK he could do because, as Bigj points out, he hasn't proven it.

The "don't look at potential, only accomplishments" is a fair argument.

But then I look at each matchup and say "who wins this".... and each time my answer is Overeem, Overeem, Overeem, against so many of these fighters.

But that is a huge assumption and is relied on solely opinion with little to back it up. Before Fedor fought Werdum 90% of people thought Fedor wins, just like when Edgar fought Penn, the thing is we don't know until it happens. Sure Overeem looks big and could pontentially beat everyone at HW but until he has I would hold off putting him so high on a pedestal. Overrating begets overrating.  If you never look at rankings as who could be who but as who has beat who then they will always be more accurate. Trying to rank someone before they actually get the win is tough, because again it's all opinion and when the fights come around and that person loses, then it means you were wrong about that fighter.  Ranking on accomplishments doesn't mean you were wrong, you were right then and when you adjust his ranking to reflect that loss you are still correct. Rankings aren't meant to predict anything they are just suppose to reflect the current state on MMA at any given time. 

Just how I see Marquardt still out ranking Okami on the consensus but the fight just happened and Marquardt lost. Without putting your opinion on the result itself Okami has a win over Marquardt and we know that. That's what we know. If they fought again could Marquardt win that would be the opinion, but until they do or until Marquardt defeats someone >Okami or Okaim loses to someone way <Marquardt it will hold true that Okami>Marquardt 

Careful, Bigj. MMA math doesn't work. Maia > Sonnen > Marquart > Maia.

Good post, good argument.

Let's look at Overeem from only that angle... what has he actually done. 

If you include Overeem's Cro Cop fight (where he was destroying him until groin shot DQ), Overeem is on a 9-fight win streak in HW division.  It's a mix of complete cans, journeyman/borderline guys who are over the hill, and then a handful of low-level UFC-caliber guys (Cro Cop, Buentello, Brett Rogers).

Compare it against the type of opposition that Shane Carwin has faced, and it's pretty similar. Carwin has 2 nice wins (Gonzaga, Mir).  Overeem has comparable wins, and Carwin is coming off of a loss.  On past fights alone, I don't have any problem putting Overeem even with or slightly better-ranked than Carwin.

I definitely never include any NC fights to me they are ignored as if they never happened. When I look at Overeem I see a lot of mediocrity even Rogers isn't a great win. The best thing he has going for him is not losing in a while. but against his level of competition he would be in nowhere near top 10 if he ever did lose. The reason why is say Sonnen vs Silva ended in the 3rd rd via NC you can't count that as anything for Sonnen assuming if the fight went on he wins because it did go on and he lost. 

When you look at Carwin or any of those guys, and the whole succession of the fights.

You have Gozaga who beat #3 ranked Mirko by KO while riding a 6 fight win streak and gets in the top 5, He loses to then top 5 Couture (who was coming off a win over sylvia) and top 10 Werdum. Those losses drive him no lower than a top 15 fighter maybe low top 10. Then he faces Carwin and gets laid out this puts Carwin in the top 10 or 15. Carwin then faces Mir who was coming off a win over top 15ish Kongo and not to long passed #2 win over Nogueira. Mir was ranked in top 5 and should still be in the top 10. That puts Carwin with a top 15 and a top 5 win + the 11-0-0 record. Carwin's loss then comes at the hands of at the time #1 ranked Lesnar which is a small loss. Leaving Carwin just outside the top 5 still below Brock but still above Mir. 

Haha well maybe when it gets to analyzing Gonzaga's accomplishments it's time to step back. In the end I have Overeem ranked higher and we both have him in our top 10, much to Dana's dismay.

I'm sure Dana would happily sign Overeem if the contract/price was right. With a physique like that the UFC could market the hell out of him.

7 for Overeem. That's my call. Take it or leave it.

I totally agree with Bigj383.He's making sence of everything he says and backs it up with facts. im big on that. Ranking fighters on what you think they can do are just assumptions and assumptions are a dime a dozen and dont work. Fighter a can beat fighter b on any given day. Rankings are for fun but they dont really mean anything. They should be ranked on previous accomplishments and again not on what one person "thinks" he is capable of doing.

Six months ago did anyone think Frankie Edgar was capable of beating BJ Penn? No, but he did, Twice! So now we rank him the top lightweight. So if i told you 7 months ago i think Edgar is a top 5 lightweight would you believe me? would all the rankings reflect my opinion because i "think" he is that good? No of course not, but he went out and did it and thats why he gets ranked. Alistar isn't out their "doing it".

Side note... Bonnell does all the local rankings around MA/RI/NH which is probably a lot harder to do than UFC-level rankings. So his opinion is worth listening to when it comes to making a system for doing rankings.

Had to build ma' rankings before jumping in.

Wavered with JDS at #2 but he's got the win streak over tough guys, he's looking like an animal, and he's fighting for the title.  He's looked better than anyone else has in the past 12-18 months.

Werdum/Fedor locations were tricky ****y. I say you are required to put Werdum above Fedor... if that's how the fight happened that's how the rankings have to go.  But there's no way I am putting Fabricio Werdum above Brock Lesnar. Not gonna happen, not even close. So Brock goes to #3, and then Werdum, Fedor fill in behind him.

Carwin gets 'almost beat the champ' points. Mir is a contender and coming off an awful win but a win.  And then Ubereem.  He's champ over the division that Antonio Silva fights in.  Big Nog is so broken down he's almost done. Big Country is coming off a loss. Barnett hasn't fought anyone, has tested positive for drugs, and hasn't been active.  And there's nobody else you can possibly choose to rank above those guys.  So to answer TS question, Overeem belongs in top 10.  Not even really a question.

on a completely separate note, how does dana white curse so much and remain so likeable? i love listening to that guy rant.