Topic: UFC Discussion

Does Ortega hit harder than we thought or is Frankie getting chinny?

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The GOAT
The GOAT
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03.05.2018 | 12:35 AM ET

Most people thought if Ortega were to win it would be by submission. Who the hell knew it would end like that! I think it was a combination of Ortega's size, solid boxing skills, and all the wars Frankie's been through. What do you guys think?

"My weight is not enough and my strength is not enough, so I have to take the fight by mastery" - Fedor Emelianenko

Responses

Fishrat de Pseud
Fishrat de Pseud

03.05.2018 | 4:30 AM ET

I listened to Chael Sonnen on this fight earlier. He reckoned normally Frankie gets in an out with good combinations and footwork mixed with the double leg, but when Ortega caught Frankie for a second in what looked like a guillotine, he said that made Frankie forget about the double leg and change his strategy, leading to Frankie getting caught because he kept things on the feet when normally he would have changed levels and been coming in for the take down. 


Another thing was the self-control of Ortega to capitalize on Frankie getting rocked. Throwing exactly the right punches and picking his moment. You'd think it would be common for these highly trained fighters to keep composure at that point and finish fighters, but most fighters instincts are to go ape**** and throw everything including the kitchen sink in a wild flurry, and often fail to cleanly land any of them.

Truly great fighters know how to finish. Ortega is the real deal. The finish was clean and clinical, like a Conor McGregor finish. It was beautiful. 

* Edited at 03.05.2018, 4:33 AM ET *

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ImperatorFishrat
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03.05.2018 | 4:54 AM ET

It's a little from column A, a little from Column B, and a little bit more that has to do with the general evolution of MMA. Frankie Edgar has been doing this since 2005. He's 36 years old, has been in countless wars, and is a pioneer. Ortega is 27 and is a new school fighter; he has the luxury of having benefited from years of adaptation gleaned from studying fighters like Edgar. There is a LOT of tape on Edgar. Lots. And lots. And he certainly is a creature of habit. The inside elbow that was the beginning of the end is a shot that Frankie has been open to for some time, and he has been wobbled by similar shots in the past when he sticks too long. Ortega is huge, and has nasty power. His KO record is nuts.

Back when Edgar started MMA wasn't was what it is now. Nobody really trained 'MMA'...people trained Muay thai, wrestling, Karate etc separately and independently. These things are now trained interdependently... MMA has kind of become its own form of martial art.

Guys like Ortega are much more varied in their striking arsenals. They are much more savvy in the pocket, more comfortable switching between SP and orthodox than the older guys who typically excelled at one type of striking base and either that worked or it didn't. The young guns are more adaptable than that. This isn't a knock on the old guard, because you can only do what you can do in your own life and time. It's not possible to conceptualize the future before it has evolved into reality, after all.

 
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Crayz
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03.05.2018 | 5:08 AM ET

I honestly felt Brian could end it on the feet. The way he did? No! That uppercut lifted frankies feet off the canvas. Brian said post fight he threw that uppercut with bad intentions. He is for real man! His stand up improved fight to fight, the guy literally has a bit of everything.

Frankie has been in some wars, so of course that plays into it at this point, at 36. I'm not sure who quoted it but someone once said " if you leave the sport undefeated/not getting knocked out, you didn't fight the right guys " which is true. And just like @fishrat said, there's a lot of tape on Frankie. It was Brian's time. Frankie got taken out by a new, modern, high level mixed martial artist, and I can't wait to see what he's got for Holloway. 

* Edited at 03.05.2018, 5:09 AM ET *

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ImperatorFishrat
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03.05.2018 | 6:19 AM ET

Crayz the other factor is that Ortega is a boxer and Frankie is more thai/chute-to-box, and he tried swinging on Brian in boxing space...this is just simply almost never going to end well for the kickboxer. I've been saying this for a long time; in close,  boxing is just miles better. It's because boxing utilizes a tighter guard and boxers rely on torsion from the hip rather than the shoulders. There's not much room for kickboxers to wind up on anything that isn't and elbow and beyond that, hand striking is just more limited in kickboxing. and is used less and differently. Muay thai especially is clash, backoff,clash, backoff...if you watch a boxers it's all about rolling in space.
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Fishrat de Pseud
Fishrat de Pseud

03.05.2018 | 7:21 AM ET

Brian hit with a Thai Elbow while Frankie was trying to land a one-two boxing combo. Just keep it simple mate, no need for nonsensical waffle to appear more expert than you are. 

* Edited at 03.05.2018, 7:22 AM ET *

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jodybanman
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03.05.2018 | 4:31 PM ET

Anyone that competes in this sport is going to get KO'd eventually.  I don't think this necessarily reflects poorly on Edgar, Ortega may be just that good.  Only the very best fighters have been able to beat Edgar.  

"I don't want to have to do this living. I just walk around. I want to be swept off my feet, you know? I want my children to have magical powers. I am prepared for amazing things to happen. I can handle it."

Zulizani
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03.05.2018 | 11:31 PM ET

For me, it was all about range.  I rewatched the Swanson/Edgar fight and noticed that if Cub had a few more inches, he'd likely have landed some monsters.  It's what led me to bet the Ortega KO.  I didn't think Frankie would shoot which meant I didn't think T-City would get the sub.  In a fight on the feet between guys this good, I imagined someone getting caught.  (I bet Edgar by KO also)

Not too sure what power has to with it.  Did some people think T-City had weak arms or something.  The guys grip is like a gators mouth, he stronk. More than stronk enough to KO somebody with a full force uppercut.  I doubt his training camp was about generating the most power he could from a punch.

And I think it would be absurd to call Frankie "chinny" because he got knock out by a perfectly landed punch at full power.  That aint chinny, thats physics.  Is Overeem chinny because Ngannou sent him back to grade school? No.  If you get KO'd from a jab, then you chinny.

Be real people.

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Fishrat de Pseud
Fishrat de Pseud

03.06.2018 | 7:00 AM ET

Just watched an interesting video on this fight from MindSmash, a great fight breakdown YT channel. Sometimes I'm dubious about some of the claims in these kind of videos as they often assume something was done purposely and strategically in hindsight by a fighter and a deliberate technique was used, when in reality it could have been completely unconscious and reflexive.

But this one is plausible. It talks about how Brian was using check hooks to counter Frankie as he was coming in and Frankie noticing that, but then Brian swtiched it up and Frankie went in when he saw there was no check hook and therefore an opening, and bam, got hit with an elbow instead.

If Brian used did use those check hooks with the intention of then switching up after lulling Frankie into a trap, then wow, the guy's fight brain is in the upper echelons of UFC fighters.

But I reckon it was just more opportune than that and that opportunity to catch Frankie just opened up and in that split second the elbow was the perfect shot to make.


* Edited at 03.06.2018, 7:06 AM ET *

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rappinpapsoda
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03.06.2018 | 7:52 AM ET

Edgar almost got put out by Maynard twice so it was bound to happen.

"The only thing predictable about MMA is that it is unpredictable."

Bigj383
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03.06.2018 | 4:14 PM ET

I just think Ortega composure and precision is what allowed him to do what no one else has been able to do. When Maynard rocked Edgar he went beast mode wild and got sloppy. When Ortega rocked Edgar he took half a beat and landed a precision strike to the chin to finish the job. 

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mulefloyd
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03.06.2018 | 7:39 PM ET

In Ortega's first 4 UFC fights and RFA before that, his striking was clearly a level (or two) below his opponent's but if you rewatch the Renato Carneiro fight it had improved dramatically, Yes he was being outlanded technically by the stats (don't get me started on how worthless those are) but he was NOT being outstruck effectively. Practically all of Carneiro's strikes were point-fighting strikes. He was making contact but already in the process of moving away thus not planted and so had very little power plus Ortega was rolling with almost every one so there was little to no effect or damage while Brian had bloodied up his nose because his shots were effective. Then when he fought Cub, his improvements were masked by Cub's striking which is among the best at FW. 

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Kuma
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03.07.2018 | 3:40 AM ET

Oh god lol.
rappinpapsoda
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03.07.2018 | 7:58 AM ET

Bigj, yes, his precision was the difference but the Maynard fight showed how Egdar could get rocked easily.

"The only thing predictable about MMA is that it is unpredictable."


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