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Is it finally time to admit Fedor was grossly overrated?
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02.22.2015 | 11:09 PM ET
Not that he wasn't good for his time, not that he didn't accomplish a lot. But the fact is there were ZERO good HW's when he was dominating Pride. And this entire fandom talked about him like he was a god. It was laughable to even suggest he could lose. And this is what I'm referring too.
Can the old time Pride boys, finally, just come to this thread, lower their head, and admit that Fedor perhaps WASN'T that good??????
I mean jesus how much more ******* proof do you need?
Can the old time Pride boys, finally, just come to this thread, lower their head, and admit that Fedor perhaps WASN'T that good??????
I mean jesus how much more ******* proof do you need?
Responses Page 10
02.25.2015 | 8:31 AM ET
"IMO a fight between Cain and Fedor would look like the fight between Fedor and Randleman without the comeback after the suplex. Fedor would get maimed."
This is a fair assessment. I will add though it is easy to judge Cain while he is on top and major flaws have not come to the surface yet. If he fights Werdum and gets submitted then all of a sudden people will say "well maybe Fedor would have submitted him". Just the way people work.
IMO Fedor is the GOAT until someone clearly passes him. Cain has any many title defenses as Brock Lesnar, Randy Couture and Tim Sylvia....yes Tim Sylvia. Calling Cain the GOAT HW at this point is a pretty far fetched comparison.
This is a fair assessment. I will add though it is easy to judge Cain while he is on top and major flaws have not come to the surface yet. If he fights Werdum and gets submitted then all of a sudden people will say "well maybe Fedor would have submitted him". Just the way people work.
IMO Fedor is the GOAT until someone clearly passes him. Cain has any many title defenses as Brock Lesnar, Randy Couture and Tim Sylvia....yes Tim Sylvia. Calling Cain the GOAT HW at this point is a pretty far fetched comparison.
02.25.2015 | 10:12 AM ET
It's like a new breed of fighters these days though, It's like if Fedor was in his prime at this present moment his legacy could be completely different you never know. That's time frames for you... It's like trying to compare Jack Nicklaus to Tiger Woods
"I really feel like I'm the most dangerous guy out there" BJ Penn........... UFC on Fox 2 event winner :)
02.25.2015 | 11:03 AM ET
There is no saying that Cain would get him to the ground either. I don't think Cain would have gotten prime CC to the ground either.
"The only thing predictable about MMA is that it is unpredictable."
02.25.2015 | 3:22 PM ET
Fedor's TDD was never his strong point. Cain would dump him on his head like Randleman did. Oh, and apparently Joe Rogan has come out and said that there's a high probability that Fedor was on steroids. No **** Joe.
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02.25.2015 | 3:30 PM ET
Joe Rogan pretends to break news all the time.
"I heard Jon Jones is set to fight Glover Teixeira!"
Yeah. That was like a year ago squid-****.
"I heard Jon Jones is set to fight Glover Teixeira!"
Yeah. That was like a year ago squid-****.
"Why are you booing me? I am the GOAT. **** you." - Patricio "Pitbull" Freire
02.25.2015 | 6:27 PM ET
For Cain getting him to the ground, I was alluding to that Fedor would KO him before it got there.
"The only thing predictable about MMA is that it is unpredictable."
02.25.2015 | 6:29 PM ET
If prime Fedor and a prime (so, right now?) Cain fought, I believe Fedor would win.
It's completely subjective, and really completely irrelevant. But hey.
It's completely subjective, and really completely irrelevant. But hey.
"Why are you booing me? I am the GOAT. **** you." - Patricio "Pitbull" Freire
02.25.2015 | 8:09 PM ET
here's an interview with Fedor, by Chuck Mindenhall, its fun and has bits of interesting info about Fedor and Dana's negotiations.
in retrospect, I think one of the reasons Fedor never signed with the UFC was because he could not have fought anywhere else while under contract and the UFC could have hold him forever.
in retrospect, I think one of the reasons Fedor never signed with the UFC was because he could not have fought anywhere else while under contract and the UFC could have hold him forever.
"he is going to the hospital, and im going to the after party, ha ha ha" Nate Diaz
02.25.2015 | 8:13 PM ET
No ****. Why would Fedor sign with the UFC? So they can hold him hostage? Him fighting in these 'no-name' promotions prior to retirement, you best believe he got ******* PAID. He had no reason to sign with the UFC and it was probably better for him financially in the long run.
"Why are you booing me? I am the GOAT. **** you." - Patricio "Pitbull" Freire
02.25.2015 | 8:18 PM ET
You can't compare guys from different eras like that. It is too hard. People can say all this stuff about Fedor not fighting the caliber of fighters Silva, GSP or Cain fought (which I think is bull anyway). But if you say that then you have to also account for the fact Fedor was training with bums at the local park and not in a world class facility with Olympians, dieticians, sports shrinks, managers, dog walkers, burrito makers, chefs ect.
I say the same thing when people question how great Babe Ruth ect were.
I say the same thing when people question how great Babe Ruth ect were.
02.25.2015 | 8:20 PM ET
Mike- Affliction paid Fedor $1.3 million to stomp Timmy into the ground lol. Add in all the freedoms in the world
02.25.2015 | 8:23 PM ET
If prime Fedor and a prime (so, right now?) Cain fought, I believe Fedor would win.
That's the thing about Cain that gives me hope he can surpass Fedor as HW GOAT. He's still just 32 years old, and he's one big right hand from JDS while on a torn up knee and god knows what else away from being undefeated going into his Werdum fight. ***** needs to stop getting hurt though, or he's just going to become another case of "What might have been"
Also, I'm pretty sure that Fedor would have been the highest paid fighter in UFC history if he signed with them (EASILY) especially if he'd signed with them prior to his losses in Strikeforce. I think the reason he decided to fight for smaller organizations after his time in Strikeforce is honestly that he didn't think he could stack up to the guys the UFC had to offer and would rather crush cans whose names meant something for a decent pay day. There's no way he made as much KOing Ishii as he would have if he'd have gone to the UFC and fought Randy Couture on a PPV.
That's the thing about Cain that gives me hope he can surpass Fedor as HW GOAT. He's still just 32 years old, and he's one big right hand from JDS while on a torn up knee and god knows what else away from being undefeated going into his Werdum fight. ***** needs to stop getting hurt though, or he's just going to become another case of "What might have been"
Also, I'm pretty sure that Fedor would have been the highest paid fighter in UFC history if he signed with them (EASILY) especially if he'd signed with them prior to his losses in Strikeforce. I think the reason he decided to fight for smaller organizations after his time in Strikeforce is honestly that he didn't think he could stack up to the guys the UFC had to offer and would rather crush cans whose names meant something for a decent pay day. There's no way he made as much KOing Ishii as he would have if he'd have gone to the UFC and fought Randy Couture on a PPV.
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02.25.2015 | 8:54 PM ET
"I think the reason he decided to fight for smaller organizations after his time in Strikeforce is honestly that he didn't think he could stack up to the guys the UFC had to offer and would rather crush cans whose names meant something for a decent pay day."
That would make sense if the UFC actually had the best HW division at the time, which they didn't. When Fedor fought for Affliction they had the best collection of HWs around. The day Fedor fought Timmy, Big Nog was the Champion in the UFC. So you think Fedor was trying to avoid fighting Big Nog cause he could not stack up? Really. When Fedor fought AA, Frank Mir was the UFC Champ and ranked #4. AA was ranked #2.
When Fedor went to Strikeforce the top of the UFC roster was Mir, Nog, Brock and Couture. Fedor, AA, Barnett (1-3), Sylvia (8) were all in Affliction, plus Rothwell (9). JDS, Cain and Carwin were just beginning to emerge and were lower ranked than Brett Rogers. And by the time Fedor fought Werdum he too had broken into the top ten. The same is true for Bigfoot.
So Fedor fought 5 top ten fighters in a row between the end of Pride and the Henderson fight. Trying to say he was avoiding the "tough" fights is moronic. He fought the best the world had to offer. And in the span of time fought more top ten HWs than any other person on earth.
That would make sense if the UFC actually had the best HW division at the time, which they didn't. When Fedor fought for Affliction they had the best collection of HWs around. The day Fedor fought Timmy, Big Nog was the Champion in the UFC. So you think Fedor was trying to avoid fighting Big Nog cause he could not stack up? Really. When Fedor fought AA, Frank Mir was the UFC Champ and ranked #4. AA was ranked #2.
When Fedor went to Strikeforce the top of the UFC roster was Mir, Nog, Brock and Couture. Fedor, AA, Barnett (1-3), Sylvia (8) were all in Affliction, plus Rothwell (9). JDS, Cain and Carwin were just beginning to emerge and were lower ranked than Brett Rogers. And by the time Fedor fought Werdum he too had broken into the top ten. The same is true for Bigfoot.
So Fedor fought 5 top ten fighters in a row between the end of Pride and the Henderson fight. Trying to say he was avoiding the "tough" fights is moronic. He fought the best the world had to offer. And in the span of time fought more top ten HWs than any other person on earth.
02.25.2015 | 11:42 PM ET
I'm talking about him not thinking he could hang in the UFC after his time in Strikeforce. Which was after Affliction.
He debuted for Strikeforce against Brett Rogers in November of 2009. The UFC HW champion at that time was an injured Brock Lesnar. The guys fighting for the interim UFC HW title at that time were Frank Mir who won it by beating Big Nog, and then you had Shane Carwin beating Frank Mir in March of 2010 (2 months before Fedor fought Werdum) which set up the title fight between Brock and Carwin in July of 2010. Fedor's next fight after Werdum was against Bigfoot in February of 2011. UFC HW champ at that time: Cain Velasquez. After losing to Bigfoot he fought Hendo in July of 2011. Cain still had the belt at that point in UFC. After losing those 3 fights in a row he took a fight for M1 against Jeff Monson in late November of 2011. UFC HW champ at the time: JDS. So, you tell me, do you think maybe he chose to go fight an almost 40 year old Jeff Monson instead of opting to be thrown into the mix of UFC HWs at the time that included guys like Cain, JDS, Kongo, Big Nog, Big Country, Frank Mir, Shane Carwin, Brock Lesnar, etc, etc? Seems to me he would have DEFINITELY made more money in the UFC, but he was coming off three stoppage losses in a row to guys who were fighting in a promotion that wasn't supposed to be as good as the UFC, and he got his ass kicked. Plus it happened to be in a promotion where drug testing was more than likely occurring. I think he got choked, mauled by Bigfoot, KO'd by Dan and couldn't handle the thought of losing anymore, so he decided to take the easier road by opting to go fight guys like Monson, Ishii, and Rizzo. That's my theory, could be totally wrong.
He debuted for Strikeforce against Brett Rogers in November of 2009. The UFC HW champion at that time was an injured Brock Lesnar. The guys fighting for the interim UFC HW title at that time were Frank Mir who won it by beating Big Nog, and then you had Shane Carwin beating Frank Mir in March of 2010 (2 months before Fedor fought Werdum) which set up the title fight between Brock and Carwin in July of 2010. Fedor's next fight after Werdum was against Bigfoot in February of 2011. UFC HW champ at that time: Cain Velasquez. After losing to Bigfoot he fought Hendo in July of 2011. Cain still had the belt at that point in UFC. After losing those 3 fights in a row he took a fight for M1 against Jeff Monson in late November of 2011. UFC HW champ at the time: JDS. So, you tell me, do you think maybe he chose to go fight an almost 40 year old Jeff Monson instead of opting to be thrown into the mix of UFC HWs at the time that included guys like Cain, JDS, Kongo, Big Nog, Big Country, Frank Mir, Shane Carwin, Brock Lesnar, etc, etc? Seems to me he would have DEFINITELY made more money in the UFC, but he was coming off three stoppage losses in a row to guys who were fighting in a promotion that wasn't supposed to be as good as the UFC, and he got his ass kicked. Plus it happened to be in a promotion where drug testing was more than likely occurring. I think he got choked, mauled by Bigfoot, KO'd by Dan and couldn't handle the thought of losing anymore, so he decided to take the easier road by opting to go fight guys like Monson, Ishii, and Rizzo. That's my theory, could be totally wrong.
* Edited at 02.26.2015, 12:08 AM ET *
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02.26.2015 | 12:22 AM ET
Personally CT, i think you are on to something, but I think it more accurate from the prospective of his management. I think they feared him losing in the UFC. I don't think Fedor really cared who he fought and near the end I think he really did not care as much about fighting anymore. I think he let his management run the show and just went along with whatever they said.
* Edited at 02.26.2015, 12:24 AM ET *
"here I come to save the day"
02.26.2015 | 1:17 AM ET
The best time the UFC had to try and land a deal with Fedor, in my opinion, was after he fought Hong Man Choi at Yarennoka. Fedor was still in his prime, and after the destruction of PRIDE, the UFC had a decent amount of (but not all) the best heavyweight talent at that point like Couture, Big Nog, Cro Cop, Arlovski, and Mir that would have all drawn big numbers in PPV if matched up with Fedor.
If Fedor and the UFC were somehow able to successfully negotiate a deal after the Yarennoka event without any of the hassle or ******** that went on in the negotiations between Zuffa and M-1 Global; I honestly believe that Fedor would have had a lot of success in the UFC and would have been a better ending to his amazing MMA career.
Furthermore, as a side note, I also think Emelianenko signing with the UFC would have easily brought in more of the big name fighters that were leftover after PRIDE broke up into the UFC (in some cases much earlier than when they actually joined/rejoined the UFC) like Little Nog, Gomi, Kharitonov, Aleksander Emelianenko, Yoshida, Barnett, Mousasi, Filho, Arona, Overeem, Aoki, Hansen, Belfort, and Aoki.
If Fedor and the UFC were somehow able to successfully negotiate a deal after the Yarennoka event without any of the hassle or ******** that went on in the negotiations between Zuffa and M-1 Global; I honestly believe that Fedor would have had a lot of success in the UFC and would have been a better ending to his amazing MMA career.
Furthermore, as a side note, I also think Emelianenko signing with the UFC would have easily brought in more of the big name fighters that were leftover after PRIDE broke up into the UFC (in some cases much earlier than when they actually joined/rejoined the UFC) like Little Nog, Gomi, Kharitonov, Aleksander Emelianenko, Yoshida, Barnett, Mousasi, Filho, Arona, Overeem, Aoki, Hansen, Belfort, and Aoki.
* Edited at 02.26.2015, 1:38 AM ET *
"..."
02.26.2015 | 7:02 AM ET
People mention him vrs Couture a lot but I think that fight would have been easy for Fedor to win.
* Edited at 02.26.2015, 9:45 AM ET *
"The only thing predictable about MMA is that it is unpredictable."
02.26.2015 | 8:31 AM ET
"I'm talking about him not thinking he could hang in the UFC after his time in Strikeforce. Which was after Affliction."
Well that is cleared. He had lost to Werdum, BigFoot and Hendo. Why would he go to the UFC after that? He should have retired after that, but wanted to go out with a win, not try to make a push for a title. Did they even want him at that point?
"The best time the UFC had to try and land a deal with Fedor, in my opinion, was after he fought Hong Man Choi at Yarennoka. Fedor was still in his prime, and after the destruction of PRIDE, the UFC had a decent amount of (but not all) the best heavyweight talent at that point like Couture, Big Nog, Cro Cop, Arlovski, and Mir that would have all drawn big numbers in PPV if matched up with Fedor."
That probably was the best chance they had. The only problem is that at that point in time the great UFC Champ, Randy Couture, had left the promotion to seek a fight with Fedor outside the promotion. The court BS went on for months and eventually Fedor decided to move on and fight while Randy and the UFC fought a court battle. Mir and Big Nog at that time got tied up with TUF. By the time the court stuff was settled Fedor was part of Affliction and the UFC HW division was in shambles.
It really is an unfortunate occurrence, but had Fedor signed with the UFC and fought Kongo, CroCop and Couture someone would be sitting here saying how he avoided fights with Timmy, AA, Barnett and Rogers or some other such non-sense.
Even if you switched his losses to Werdum, BigFoot and Hendo and instead pretend he lost JDS, Cain and Couture would that really change his legacy?
Well that is cleared. He had lost to Werdum, BigFoot and Hendo. Why would he go to the UFC after that? He should have retired after that, but wanted to go out with a win, not try to make a push for a title. Did they even want him at that point?
"The best time the UFC had to try and land a deal with Fedor, in my opinion, was after he fought Hong Man Choi at Yarennoka. Fedor was still in his prime, and after the destruction of PRIDE, the UFC had a decent amount of (but not all) the best heavyweight talent at that point like Couture, Big Nog, Cro Cop, Arlovski, and Mir that would have all drawn big numbers in PPV if matched up with Fedor."
That probably was the best chance they had. The only problem is that at that point in time the great UFC Champ, Randy Couture, had left the promotion to seek a fight with Fedor outside the promotion. The court BS went on for months and eventually Fedor decided to move on and fight while Randy and the UFC fought a court battle. Mir and Big Nog at that time got tied up with TUF. By the time the court stuff was settled Fedor was part of Affliction and the UFC HW division was in shambles.
It really is an unfortunate occurrence, but had Fedor signed with the UFC and fought Kongo, CroCop and Couture someone would be sitting here saying how he avoided fights with Timmy, AA, Barnett and Rogers or some other such non-sense.
Even if you switched his losses to Werdum, BigFoot and Hendo and instead pretend he lost JDS, Cain and Couture would that really change his legacy?
02.26.2015 | 8:40 AM ET
@GreenHornet
"Furthermore, as a side note, I also think Emelianenko signing with the UFC would have easily brought in more of the big name fighters "
You are 100% right about this. IMO if Fedor signs with the UFC then Affliction never exists. The UFC would have been able to have every single top HW in the world signed to their promotion and would have been the best HW division of all time. I don't know if Fedor, M1 or Zuffa is to blame (likely a combo of all 3) but we the fans missed out on what could have been something amazing. Imagine this fight card (as of Dec 2007 rankings).
Fedor vs Couture (Unified Pride vs UFC HW title)
Big Nog vs Sylvia (actually happened in Feb 2008)
Barnett vs Gonzaga
AA vs CroCop
Kongo vs Werdum
That would have been awesome. Add in
Mir vs Lesnar
And promotional new comers
Carwin vs Velasquez
"Furthermore, as a side note, I also think Emelianenko signing with the UFC would have easily brought in more of the big name fighters "
You are 100% right about this. IMO if Fedor signs with the UFC then Affliction never exists. The UFC would have been able to have every single top HW in the world signed to their promotion and would have been the best HW division of all time. I don't know if Fedor, M1 or Zuffa is to blame (likely a combo of all 3) but we the fans missed out on what could have been something amazing. Imagine this fight card (as of Dec 2007 rankings).
Fedor vs Couture (Unified Pride vs UFC HW title)
Big Nog vs Sylvia (actually happened in Feb 2008)
Barnett vs Gonzaga
AA vs CroCop
Kongo vs Werdum
That would have been awesome. Add in
Mir vs Lesnar
And promotional new comers
Carwin vs Velasquez
02.26.2015 | 9:32 AM ET
Well that is cleared. He had lost to Werdum, BigFoot and Hendo. Why would he go to the UFC after that? He should have retired after that, but wanted to go out with a win, not try to make a push for a title. Did they even want him at that point?
**** yeah they wanted him at that point if they have any business sense at all. Regardless of him having lost 3 fights in a row the name Fedor is still gonna draw viewers. I bet if you go back and look at the amount of viewers for his last 3 fights before retirement (if it's even possible) it'll be a crazy amount of views for two M1 shows and a DREAM show. Same with his fights in Strikeforce. I'm sure if you go back and look at the numbers for the 4 Strikeforce cards he fought on (even after losing 2 in a row) they're probably 4 of the top Strikeforce cards ever as far as views go. There were top 10 guys in the UFC at HW at the time like Brendan Schaub and Mike Russow. There were fights he could have massacred guys in and brought in millions, or give everyone one of the fights they'd been talking about for years in Lesnar/Fedor or Couture/Fedor, but either he, or his management as Franklin pointed out apparently wanted no part of those fights.
**** yeah they wanted him at that point if they have any business sense at all. Regardless of him having lost 3 fights in a row the name Fedor is still gonna draw viewers. I bet if you go back and look at the amount of viewers for his last 3 fights before retirement (if it's even possible) it'll be a crazy amount of views for two M1 shows and a DREAM show. Same with his fights in Strikeforce. I'm sure if you go back and look at the numbers for the 4 Strikeforce cards he fought on (even after losing 2 in a row) they're probably 4 of the top Strikeforce cards ever as far as views go. There were top 10 guys in the UFC at HW at the time like Brendan Schaub and Mike Russow. There were fights he could have massacred guys in and brought in millions, or give everyone one of the fights they'd been talking about for years in Lesnar/Fedor or Couture/Fedor, but either he, or his management as Franklin pointed out apparently wanted no part of those fights.
* Edited at 02.26.2015, 9:34 AM ET *
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