Wand calls out Hendo and Hendo accepts

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/8/6/5975619/ufc-news-wanderlei-silva-vs-dan-henderson-challenge-accepted

Alright Anik, here we go.
Henderson over rated? In a way I could see and understand that argument, but at the same time to you he's very clearly under rated.
"Carlos Newton should have won the UFC Middleweight tourney in 1999," but he didn't
"Big Nog was robbed in the Rings tourney semi-final" subjective, and at the end of the day it's still a win for Henderson
"Murilo Rua should have won their fight in Pride" Cool, but again he didn't.
This argument is the easiest thing to pick apart because there's no actually intelligent evidence. In YOUR  opinion he lost these fights, but on his record they're wins. The same argument could be made from the opposite side. He lost very close split decisions to both Lyoto and Rashad (who I would like to add were both top 5 ranked LHWs at the time) I could call ******** and say those should have both been wins, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

"His signature wins include his victory against a way past-his-prime Fedor who actually dominated the fight before Hendo got him with that random punch in that awkward position" This is just blatantly untrue. Dan Henderson comes out in that fight rocks Fedor fight away, and then dominates him in the clinch with some very effective knees before Fedor lands one decent flurry, and then proceeds to get brutally knocked out. Regardless of your personal feelings you can't just rewrite history. Dan Henderson controls and dominates that fight (and I just re-watched it in case you were wondering, maybe you should do the same).
"past-his-prime Shogun" this may or may not be true but considering Shogun was coming off a win against Forrest Griffin, before losing his title in a fight to Jon Jones, I don't think he was that out of his prime.
"his KO of Wanderlei Silva (who ******* sucks)" I agree with this, but at the time I believe Wandy was considered one of the best in the world. So the win still holds a decent amount of merit.
"and his beheading of the almost nearly as overrated Michael Bisping." considering Bisping has been a top ten MW for literally 5 years, it's very obviously a good win. And on a side note, wasn't this near beheading an absolutely beautiful thing to watch? You know it was Anik.


"Here are the facts whether you like them or not; Dan Henderson has never been a UFC champion despite being awarded back-to-back title shots, Henderson got his ass beat by Jake Shields"
Dan not being a UFC champion is the only thing even slightly resembling s fact in this statement, and I say slightly because technically speaking he was a tournament champion. SO if you wanna get into semantics it is an inaccurate statement.
Dan Henderson by no means "got his ass beat" by Jake Shields. Was he thoroughly out classed? Yes, of coarse, but it's not like Shields put a beating on him. What Dillawshaw did to Baroa was an ass beating. Taking someone down, laying on them without doing any damage, and never being anywhere close to finishing, all the while getting ****** up every time the fight was standing is not an ass beating. It was a very one sided fight, but nowhere close to what you're trying to make it out to be.

I feel that logically speaking Hendo is without a doubt top five of all time. The only guys that really make sense to put above him are Anderson, GSP, and MAYBE Fedor. Aside from them though who has beaten more top guys? Who has held more major organization titles? The answer: No one. There are few people in the history of the sport that have more accolades than Dan does.

Is Hendo tho most technical fighter ever? No. Is he the most well rounded fighter? No. Is he an amazing athlete? Arguable, but considering he has wins over Shogun (twice), Fedor, Rich Franklin, Ninja Rua, Wandy, Carlos Newton, Big Nog, Belfort, Paul Harris, Babalu (twice), he was the first man to win a round in the UFC against Anderson Silva, he held two different PRIDE belts at the same time, was a Strikeforce champion, and a UFC tournament winner. His accolades speak for themselves.
You may not like the guy (for whatever reason) but come on, he's without a doubt one of the greatest fighters to EVER compete in MMA.    

Dan Henderson is awful. Wanderlei Silva is the GOAT at LHW and he only lost to Hendo because Henderson was roided out of his mind. He beat him up bad in their first meeting. GG, fegs. 

Mike, did you really just try to defend Wandy losing by saying Hendo was roided up?
Bruh....




Come on......



BRUH

lmao so Hendo's going to go from fighting Machida, Shogun, TRT Vitor and DC to .... old Wandy. 

I'm down for Hendo to get his first easy fight in years though fglop

Dan wins again.

@Justyn Well said.

Hendo via Wanderlei getting 2 years suspension. 

Thank you Justyn for the rebuttal, I appreciate that. Since you took the time to make a post challenging my arguments, I will do the same as well out of respect.

Now what you need to understand first is that the degree to which a fighter is overrated/underrated is not judged by the bare bones perspective you provided for us but rather a deeper look into the nature of those fights. If we were to look at it through a bare bones perspective there IS NO ARGUMENT; Dan Henderson is one of the top 5 greatest ever. But the argument you raise is the exact problem with judging a fighter based off of his win/loss record; it does not do true justice to the fighter.

Is Kazushi Sakuraba NOT one of the top 25 greatest fighters of all-time? He's 26-16. Is Randy Couture NOT one of the top 15 greatest fighters of all-time? He's 19-10 and he lost to Valentijn Overeem. BJ Penn is 16-10, is he not one of the top 10 greatest ever? Is Benson Henderson the greatest lightweight champion of all-time? He defended the belt as much as BJ Penn and it's the wins that count according to you. Your argument works both ways. 

I can say that Carlos Newton repeatedly knocking Henderson down should have led to his victory, especially with Henderson's lack of activity on the ground.

However, the problems start with the Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira fight. That fight was easily one of the greatest robberies of all-time and I blame it on the judges' lack of understanding the grappling game because Nogueira put him into a good 10 submissions in that fight while Hendo did nothing. That fight was highway robbery and I don't care what the **** you say, but if you think "a win is a win" in circumstances like that you're a ******* ******.

The Murilo Rua fight was very interesting because it was basically a muay-thai fighter lay n' praying an Olympic wrestler with an amazing amount of success. It was a ridiculously boring fight because Murilo did nothing from top position and he'd stay there for a long time but whenever Dan got the takedown Murilo popped right back up. When the third round came, Dan was able to rock Murilo Rua and get the takedown but again, Murilo reversed the position. By the end of the fight, even the commentators were saying that Murilo won the fight and Dan didn't do enough in the 3rd round but the judges gave it to Dan Henderson anyway. Why? Because Murilo Rua was extremely boring and got booed whereas Dan Henderson was trying to show the people a real fight, even if he was unsuccessful at it. That was the problem with PRIDE judging, they cared more about the bushido code than they did actual point-scoring.

The Yuki Kondo fight was essentially the same thing only Yuki Kondo was also teeing off on a gassed Dan Henderson as well. That was a close fight but I thought Kondo won it as well.

I wish you could call those losses to Rashad Evans and Lyoto Machida ******** but they weren't, especially the latter. See the difference between you and I is that I'm not just scrolling through Hendo's record on Sherdog, seeing a split-decision win and then instantly calling ********, I'm actually watching those fights.

I guess I should rewatch the Fedor fight, if that was the case. I remember it differently but again, I remember Fedor knocking Dan Henderson down and then Hendo getting up and knocking Fedor down.

If you think Shogun after his title loss to Jon Jones was still Shogun in his prime...dude. You need to watch some Shogun fights. You want prime Shogun? Prime Shogun was PRIDE Shogun and that absurd 15-1 record. Shogun Rua in the UFC was never in his prime because of his ridiculous amount of injuries, it's just straight up truth. This is why I'm so amazed by Shogun Rua, he won the UFC title against Lyoto Machida and the man was already past his prime. Don't get it twisted, just 'cause he's been a top 10 LHW in the UFC doesn't mean he was in his prime.

As for the Wanderlei Silva being good, I strongly disagree. In my eyes, Wanderlei Silva experienced a steep decline starting from the Mirko Cro Cop fight. Wanderlei Silva, in his prime, was a roided freak but he was also an extremely intelligent fighter and a true Muay-Thai man. He won so many fights because he was a master of transitioning from punches to kicks to the plum to wrestling back to the plum, etc etc. He was an offensive freak who was a master of putting his opponent in uncomfortable situations. Wanderlei's decline started from the Mirko Cro Cop fight because that was actually the first fight where he didn't use the clinch, he didn't bother kicking, he didn't even bother changing it up. All he would do is charge at Mirko and swing those stupid alternating hooks and Mirko would side step him, every ******* time. Wanderlei's fight IQ went from very high to one of the lowest. Wanderlei Silva fell in love with his fists, and that was the sole reason for his demise. Wanderlei Silva was once an excellent fighter, but Dan Henderson only fought a roided version of the one today, not the same Wanderlei he fought the first time (where he lost by the way).

Michael Bisping is a top 10 middleweight? Really? That's funny 'cause the only top 10 middleweights Michael Bisping's ever beaten have never beaten top 10 middleweights themselves...pretty funny actually. Michael Bisping is ****, let's not kid ourselves here. It was definitely a beautiful knockout though, I could swear that Hendo actually blew smoke off of his fist before laying that final punch down.

Dan Henderson was never a UFC champion. A tournament champion is a tournament champion, I ******* hate it when people say otherwise. Tournament champions don't defend their titles, so tournament champions aren't real champions.

I don't know about you but I think Jake Shields broke a record for most passed guards in a fight in UFC/Strikeforce/PRIDE history, though you'll need to check that up. I'm sorry but that is ******* sad. That, to me, is just as much of a beatdown as your example.

As for Dan Henderson being the first to win a round against Anderson Silva in the UFC, I disagree. I thought Travis Lutter won the first round against Anderson Silva, and pretty clearly might I add.

Dan Henderson has never defended a PRIDE title. Dan Henderson has never been a UFC champion. Dan Henderson is without a doubt one of the top 15 greatest fighters to ever live but I would never in a million years put him in a top 5, not with that many question marks on his record.

But most people would because most people ignore said question marks, which makes Dan Henderson the most overrated fighter of all-time.




And I haven't even started on TRT yet.

EDIT: It took me 45 minutes to write those 1200 words, I hope you read 'em.

* Edited at 08.08.2014, 6:55 PM ET *

Whether you agree or disagree with him, AnikM's posts are almost always intriguing reads. For the record, my top 5 would probably be as follows. 

1. Anderson Silva 
2. GSP 
3. Jon Jones 
4. Fedor 
5. Chuck Liddell. 

I base this on a combination of quality of wins and division dominance. If I could step away from my career search and sports blogging, I would type a well thought out explanation. Oh well. It's a good thing my opinion is ultimately irrelevant in a sea of forum members. Carry on, everyone. 

Yeah Anik usually does really good posts and I agree with a lot of the stuff he says. Only problem is someones a "******* ******" if they have a certain opinion. Otherwise all good

* Edited at 08.09.2014, 7:11 AM ET *

I hate this stupid idea that every opinion should be treated equally, because they shouldn't. They shouldn't because they're not all equal opinions. If someone has a ******* ******** opinion they're a ******* ******, it's as simple as that.

I don't agree with that sentiment. At all. Everyone has at least one opinion that can be taken as "stupid" by a collective community of peers. Boiling it down to "one questionable opinion makes someone ********" is incredibly close-minded. 

Oh Anik, 

"That was the problem with PRIDE judging, they cared more about the bushido code than they did actual point-scoring." 


That isn't a problem, that was one thing they got right.

Ah yes, the classic "everything is relative" argument. Everyone seems to have a problem with the way I said what I said so let me rephrase that into something that is less harsh and more in line with what I believe; an opinion is only as good as the facts that back it up.

@mulefloyd It really wasn't. I could only imagine how amazing Diego Sanchez' record would be if he had PRIDE judges scoring all of his fights...

Also, again with these stupid ******* thumb downs on my argument posts. Every person that thumbs me down and doesn't actually challenge something I said in those posts should bury themselves into a ******* ditch.

"An opinion is only as good as the facts that back it up."




I stand by this. A credible opinion is one supported by credible facts. That statement does your argument justice. 

* Edited at 08.10.2014, 12:56 AM ET *

Nice try. True, Diego possesses the "warrior spirit" but you picked the one example of a fighter who fights to win but has very limited skill and has the most controversial decisions by consensus agreement. 

Point fighting sucks and will be the death of MMA. Fight to finish. Technique is NOT the most important thing. Finishing or at least attempting to finish should be a goal in the unified rules and judging criteria. Fighting would be much more realistic and better off if it were.

I watch MMA solely for technique. That is the first thing I focus on and it is the most important thing to me, it's where I get my entertainment from. Sure, I do love the good ol' just bleed fight like anyone else but unless it's FOTY material, I am only looking at technique when I watch fights.

Personally I don't think attempting a finish should be considered by judges and I hate how much people value finishes so much when to me, the difference between a finish and a decision is just the length of the fight.

It's also funny how you're talking about how fighting would be more realistic and better off if judges focused on finishing the fight. In my eyes if you want to watch that, go watch a street fight because they're all over Youtube. I don't watch fighting, I watch mixed martial arts. I want to see one person's assortment of techniques clash against another's and see what happens. I want to watch martial arts being performed, simple.

We're just too far apart on this matter to ever agree, which is perfectly fine. Personally I don't know anyone who watches MMA the way I do so I'm used to people disagreeing with me when it comes to stuff like this.

This^

Which is why I'll take a flyweight fight over a heavyweight every time.