"CYBORG"

"CYBORG" any one who thinks any one on this list is better than "CYBORG" is crazy this is not a beauty contest ! "CYBORG" would knock out all of the ones on this list ! 

This is still going....haha.

You know this argument/debate has gotten way off point. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE (myself included) has been like a stubborn child beating their head against the wall with their fingers in their ears screaming, "I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!!!!! I DON'T HEAR YOU!!!!"

We all need to find some common ground to stand on here. Let's see if there's some things we can agree on. #1. First thing that we have in common, we're all fans of the idea of Rousey fighting Cyborg, but because of one reason or another this fight may not to happen, (I'm not getting into what because that will just stir more ******** unintelligent childish debate).

#2. For the pro-Rousey side, you guys on this side think that Rousey will win and is the better fighter because she's a master of the armbar, and has proven such finishing all 9 of her fights (amateur included) by first round armbar. No matter what, Rousey's legacy is written. The argument against that is that in many MMA enthusiasts eyes she is a one-trick pony, and that is the only weapon that she has. The argument against the one-trick pony argument, is that if not's broke, don't fix it. For myself, I look at it this way, if Rousey is a one-trick fighter, no matter how good she is at it, all one-trick fighters eventually get exposed, and as quickly as everyone is jumping on her bandwagon, those same people will turn on her in heartbeat, claim she's overrated, and forget about the fact that the first 9 fights of her career were finished by 1st round armbar submission. I take nothing away from Rousey at all as a submission specialist, but my big question is, can she really fight? Not just grapple, but can she actually stand and strike if it becomes at all necessary? What happens when the armbar doesn't work anymore? What's she going to do then?

The pro-Cyborg side, we all see Cyborg as a dangerous striker on the feet who throws everything in her arsenal with bad intentions. She doesn't fight like a Barbie doll type broad, she fights like a true fighter. She's a black belt in Muay Thai under Rafael Cordeiro and a brown belt in BJJ under Andre' Galvao. It's believed on the Cyborg side that Rousey has never faced a fighter that is as dangerous all the way around as Cyborg, and like what Cyborg did to Gina Carano, once Cyborg puts her hands on Rousey, Rousey will fold. The argument against this is, that Cyborg tested positive for steroids after Hiroko Yamanaka fight, so her wins to date are tainted. The argument against that is she tested positive once, it could be safe to assume that she's been taking steroids her entire career, but nothing can be proven it's all speculation. She only tested positive once, there are so many fighters that have tested positive multiple times, and their careers have faced so much less scrutiny that **** that Cyborg is getting for her one failed test. She tested positive, and she's been punished. The question surrounding Cyborg fight-wise, she's never faced a fighter who is as dangerous on the ground or as highly decorated as Rousey, if Carano can get full mount on Cyborg, then what will happen if Rousey mounts Cyborg? How will Cyborg fight at 135, if the fight happens at that weight? How will Cyborg fight without the roids?

I'm not going to get into any of the other ******** surrounding this argument because the rest of the debate on this part of the subject just got childish and unintelligent, but the point to this almost novel of part 2 is that you're not going to shake the Cyborg believers and you're not going to shake the Rousey believers. In summation, we are fans of our favorite female fighters and we believe that our gal is going to win in convincing fashion. Basically we love our fighters.

#3. Both sides think that one fighter is afraid of the other, and there is evidence and good argument on both sides to support such a claim. Which in that sense both arguments also collapse on themselves. LOL

#4. Right now at this point and time Rousey fights for the UFC, and Cyborg doesn't. The UFC has a women's 135 class and right now that's it. Like it or not, that's just how it is.

Personally, if they ever fought (no matter what weight 135, 140, or 145) I think that Cyborg would beat Rousey,

Thank you jaykool.

The problem is when Bill Burgess claims that Ronda Rousey did absolutely nothing to get to where she is, which by itself is one of the most absurd statements ever uttered on this site ever.


And for what it's worth, I agree; I think Cyborg would beat Ronda Rousey up. I also think that it would be pointless to have the fight at 140.

@Anik Since you posted without throwing away your power with bad language, I'd be honored to crush your A-Game like the ****roach it is.  But first I must peruse several of your posts to assemble your A-Game.  As best I can assemble it, here is the crushing.

1. Cyborg has no name - Silly but I guess I must still crush it.  Before Cyborg came along, Gina Carano was the 'Face' of women's MMA.  They were both fighting in the 145 lb. division of Strikeforce.  They met on August 15, 2009 and Cyborg got the TKO with just a second to go in the first.  The ref stopped the fight at the bell.  

That fight elevated and launched Cyborg as the new toughest, baddest woman fighter.  That fight retired Gina, who might well have tried to come back and avenge the loss.  But Gina smelled more money in films and retired.  That is how Cyborg got her 'name'.  And for hardcores, that was legitimate.  

Cyborg won 2 other fights in SF over Coenen and Finney before she tested positive after a December 17, 2011 fight.  So, Cyborg does indeed have a massive name and no wishful thinking by Dana White can take that from her.  The hardcores laugh at White for calling her irrelevant.  Makes him look like a politician.

2. Fighting at a catchweight would not make sense.  That is an argument that only a casual, mainstream fan could make.  Hardcores want this fight.  You yourself admitted that Cyborg deserved it.  So, why you argue against it the next moment is bewildering.  Sport value makes it relevant.

3. Rousey being an Olympic judoka makes her more marketable.  As sad as it is, I must admit that the Olympics do not confer the name, prestige, fame, money or marketability on an athlete as it should.  I say that with sadness, because I agree with you that it SHOULD.  But how many MMA fans today know that Randy Couture or Mark Coleman were once Olympians?  Couture was an Olympic wrestling alternate.  Coleman placed 7th overall in the 1992 Summer Olympics in Barcelona, Spain.  I had to look that stuff up on their wikipedia pages.  I didn't know it and I doubt you did either.  So much for Olympic fame transfer.

4. Cyborg can cut to 135 without suffering side-effects.  From the photos shown already, where can she lose excess weight?  The assumption is that if she stopped steroids, she'd shed pounds.  But how can anyone truly know that?  Medical scientists cannot predict something like that with certainly.  It might happen.  That is certainly a possibility.  But no one in this house can assert that with any degree of honest certainty.

5. There are not enough women 145 fighters to form a UFC division.  You claim that there are 69 women 145 fighters now world-wide.  Probably only a few with UFC potential.  You give no credence to what would happen if the UFC opened a 145 class.  How could you or anyone know what would happen.  

If after the Carano/Cyborg fight, the UFC had invited both of them into the UFC, do you really think they'd have refused?  And if the UFC had opened a 145 lb. division, do you really think that the 135 lb. women wouldn't have moved to 145 to fight in the UFC?  Be honest.  They all would have moved up just to get into the UFC.  Guaranteed, straight up!  And if the UFC ever does open a 145 class, you can bet your bippy that some 135 women would move up.  Just to get into the UFC.  Build it and they will come.

6. Rousey was the 'most watched' women even before she came to the UFC.  Determining that is a art that even the professionals struggle with.  How to separate the drawing power of others on the card.  I just don't think you have the experience to determine these things.

When Rousey beat Tate in SF, that card also featured Josh Thomson vs. KJ Noons, and Paul Daley vs. Kazuo Misaki.  How much of that 400,000 PPV were pulled in due to Thomson, Noons and Daley?  Not sure?  Hmm.  Me neither.

7. Cyborg was in Strikeforce and left rather than fight Rousey at 135.  I really don't think you were entitled to the private negotiations.  To try to coerce a fighter to drop to a weight division is not good.  And how do you know about the money allocations?  Maybe they offered Rousey too high a percentage vs. Cyborg.  Since neither of us were privvy to those discussions, I don't think you're qualified to bad-mouth Cyborg for asking for a better deal.  

So, think the above comprises the heart of your A-Game.  You seem to think that my points are false simply because you disagree with them.  But I am not wrong just because you think so.

Cyborg does have a name.  And a HUGE name at that.  And Rousey has a huge name too, NOW.  But how much of a name would she have if Dana White hadn't stepped in and altered her destiny?  Her destiny was forever changed via courtesy of Dana White.  If not for him, Ronda would be fighting in Invectus today or some such promotion.  

I was once your staunchest supporter, but you broke up a partnership that wasn't broken, solely due to your desperate need for attention.  You claim you are not mean-spirited or personal, but you miss no opportunity to use negative adjectives to ridicule, belittle, demean and defame me.  But I stopped caring about betrayals from the back.  Whatever I saw in you was potential but you decided to go a different path.

So be it, Sith Lord.  Consider your A-Game crushed like a ****roach.  

* Edited at 05.20.2013, 3:34 PM ET *

jay, 2 things you don't mention that need to be are both related to their looks: Being "prettier" (as seems to be the consensus) will always help Ronda draw more (non-hardcore, of which there are many more) viewers and being as ripped and muscular as Cris is will always compound her testing positive (along with the general belief that testing isn't stringent enough)

What about the side that thinks Cyborg has a very good chance at beating Rousey, but the burden to make this fight happen rests solely with Cyborg right now? Do I think Rousey has a much better chance at winning at 135? Hard to tell -- but Cyborg's refusal to even try to take the title from Rousey at that weight, when her management said she can make that weight, leads me to one of two conclusions. (1) cyborg has an inflated sense of her self and worth such that she is putting unrealistic $ before a UFC title; or (2) cyborg thinks a 135lb fight disadvantages cyborg enough that she has a material chance of losing.

* Edited at 05.20.2013, 3:29 PM ET *

And you guys Bill/jay...are talking about how Ronda is getting the better end because she's 'prettier'/'hotter'....I actually think that you two are basing your opinion on her and Cyborg's appearance.


You guys think a pretty little blonde chick isn't as legit as a roided up monster chick...



HYPOCRITES!!!

Great post Jay thumbs up you are a good sport, poster and not the problem here, it clearly is Mr. Bill Bogus.

@ mulefloyd - I'll agree that testing needs to be more stringent, but in all actuality, no matter the test, there's always ways around it, so there's always going to be that one test thrown in Cyborg's face. I left the looks part out of it because that's where I saw the debate/argument really begin to collapse on intelligence.

@ AnikM - Much agreed. Whether MMA fans (hardcore or casual) like it or not, a lot of the attention that Women's MMA is getting is due much in part to Ronda Rousey, and that is why Dana White chose her. No matter what, MMA is a business. Rousey has the ratings, and the record. That can never be denied.

Personally, I love fighters (male or female) that just go out and fight. Not fighters like Leonard Garcia, who just flail and throw to look exciting, but fighters who are exciting and have great skill. A few examples of some of my favorite fights in that department Hendo vs. Shogun, Chuck Liddell vs. Wanderlei Silva, Randy Couture vs. Pedro Rizzo, Tito Ortiz vs. Frank Shamrock, Nick Diaz vs. Karo Parysian, Gray Maynard vs. Frankie Edgar II and III, any of the Gilber Melendez vs. Josh Thomson fights, Renan Barao vs. Michael McDonald, and Jose Aldo vs. Urijah Faber. That's why I would love to see Cyborg vs. Rousey so much. Two of the highest skilled WMMA fighters in the world going toe-to-toe, it would also be the classic striker vs. grappler match-up.

While I don't agree with the fight being pointless at 140, I fully understand why you think it's pointless, and in all actuality in a lot of ways, it is, but that's how bad I want to see the fight. Unfortunately, just because I want to see the fight that bad, doesn't mean that the mainstream does.

They aren't basing it on looks, just reality. And it's not like they're saying Ronda is is a dainty little girl. For one, have you seen her back? She's ripped too.

They're saying Cyborg looks like a ******' dude because of the steroids and the extreme amount of muscle mass she has for a woman.

When Nate Diaz fought Ben Henderson, how many of us said Bendo is going to ragdoll him? And that's exactly what happened. In closed quarters fights, the stronger guy (or girl in this case) comes out the victor, usually.

@ Blackwork - Great post, and I've actually wondered the same thing.

@ Swick - Never really thought about it that way, but you're actually right, However; I've never taken anything away from Rousey or have discredited any of her wins.

With respect to looks and PR:  I am amused that in this MMA PR game, the women feel obligated to play the game that men require.

MMA women seem for the most part, semi-Tom-Boyish.  They seem more comfortable sweating in a gym.

But, the PR game requires them to put on the war paint (makeup), slip into something slinky, and smile coyly at the cameras.  God they must feel uncomfortable doing that.  They are no doubt being pressured to fem up for the sake of playing the PR game.  

Down the road, there will come a point where someone realizes that in the women's MMA fighters community, there is a sizable gay component.  That will present PR challenges of a whole other kind that requires finesse in marketing.  Liz Carmouche already came out and I think more will in time.  And requiring them to fem up will be funny.

Are we still so confused that we care about who is the prettier fighter?  This is the fight game.  No need for a double standard.  We don't make our men be handsome.  Why do our women have to be beautiful?

* Edited at 05.20.2013, 3:51 PM ET *

Oh it happens with men's MMA too. I'd say 75% of the time I mention the UFC to a woman, they bring up Urijah Faber in some capacity. Nothing wrong with it, of course the better looking fighters are going to be more marketable to the opposite sex (or same sex, depending on lifestyle).

@ amp112 - very true, very true. LOL

* Edited at 05.20.2013, 4:04 PM ET *

@Bill Burgess Crush my A-Game? You call that crushing my 'A-Game'? I can not only break down your false statements but I will, thoroughly. You thought you saw my A-Game, brace yourself. Let me show you my cards now.

1. Cristiane Cyborg crushed the biggest name in women's MMA. Women's MMA itself is so ridiculously small that pretty much no one has a name, especially at the time of Cyborg's dominance. Do hardcore fans know about Cyborg? OF COURSE, no one is denying that. Does Cyborg have a name amongst everyone? NO. 

MMA is a small sport, the mainstream audience probably recognizes only a couple of fighters. Before WMMA was featured in the UFC, no typical observer knew any fighter from women's MMA. And now that WMMA IS featured in the UFC, the only name people know is Ronda Rousey.

Why is Ronda Rousey the only name people know? It's not because of the UFC pushing her to the moon, she brought herself there before the UFC bought into WMMA. Dana White even said that the only reason he brought WMMA into the UFC was because Ronda Rousey was making it impossible to ignore.

Ronda Rousey was making appearances on talk shows and was on the cover of ESPN's Body Issue BEFORE she went into the UFC. Do you not remember that? Dana and Ronda were not affiliated in any way before mid-December 2012.

2. Fighting at a catchweight does not make sense because there would be no mainstream interest. Putting Rousey in the main event defending her title garners mainstream interest and allows the UFC to make more money than usual off of her name. If Cyborg fights Rousey at 140, there would be no title on the line and no interest because Cyborg is not a name that casual observers want fighting Rousey.

BJ Penn went up to 170 to fight GSP. People want to see GSP go up to 185 to fight Anderson. There is interest for people to have Anderson go up and fight Jon Jones at 205. But the only reason why those fights were possible was because of casual interest and you said it yourself; the interest to see Cyborg fight is only coming from hardcore fans.

Not only that but let's say Dana White feels like throwing away millions and sets the fight up for 140; if Cyborg beats Rousey, what happens? You literally have one fighter who just beat your biggest name in women fighting who you can't use because there is no division for her and your champion at 135 looks totally weak because she just lost all of her credibility by losing. If the fight's at 135 and Cyborg wins, she can have Rousey's star appeal rub off on her and continue beating people up as the champ, like the way Chuck Liddell took Tito's thunder and ran with it.

3. Actually, it is common knowledge among many people that Randy Couture and Mark Coleman were once Olympians, just 'cause you did not know doesn't mean anyone else does. Dan Henderson was in the Olympics too. Being an Olympian does make you look more credible and I have an example for you.

Let's say Daniel Cormier never wrestled in the Olympics. Let's say he was a solid NCAA Division 1 wrestler. How many people would consider him to be a threat to Jon Jones? How many people would think that Cormier could beat Cain Velasquez? Not very many, I can tell you that. It is because he wrestled at the Olympics that people assume that he has a solid chance against both of those guys because of the high standard in Olympic athletics. Now am I saying that Cormier's wrestling ability is dependent on whether he participated in the Olympics? No, I'm saying the public's perception of Cormier's wrestling ability is dependent on his participation in the Olympics.

Would Ben Askren's wrestling be nearly as credible had he not wrestled at the Olympics? No. Would Ronda Rousey's judo be nearly as credible if she wasn't an Olympian? No.

Fighters who have participated in the Olympics are aided greatly because everyone assumes that the Olympics are the golden standard. Ronda Rousey the fighter is not as marketable as Ronda Rousey the Olympic medalist. Be careful though, this does not work vice-versa.

4. Mike Dolce has come out and said that he could definitely bring Cyborg down to 135 healthily and he even offered to, for free. Cyborg declined. When it comes to nutrition and health, Mike Dolce is a much more credible source compared to Bill Burgess and I think everyone would agree with that.

5. I cannot deny that the women would have come anyways. Logistically however, it makes more sense for women to come to the 135 pound division because not only could the 145 pounders put extra effort in dropping weight but the 125 pounders (which is the biggest women's division in the world) could come up to 135. Do you think 125 pound fighters would come to the UFC to fight at 145 when most of them are under 140 pounds? There are no relevant 155 pounders but because the 135 pound division is smack dab in the middle of women's MMA, it is perfect.

A 135 pound division attracts more women, and as the division grows the UFC will eventually open other divisions. The 125 and 145 pound divisions will come but now is not the time. A 135 pound division makes the most sense.

6. Strikeforce wasn't on PPV Bill. I may not have experience in determining who draws more but guess what, I'm a far more credible source than you. And I can definitely say this; a fight between Gina Carano and Cristiane Cyborg is much more marketable than a fight between Ronda Rousey and Miesha Tate.

To be honest, your statement wasn't really you saying anything. You kinda just threw an idea out there and claimed that no one knows a thing about it, including you. If that's you crushing a ****roach, you must be living among them.

7. Ronda Rousey is a much bigger name than Cyborg so she deserves the far larger share of the revenue, it's as simple as that. Cyborg wanted it to be equal but her marketability is not equal to Ronda's, so she cannot generate as much money as Ronda which means she should be paid as much as Ronda. Simple as that.

You are not wrong because I think so Bill. You are wrong because the facts say so. It's as simple as that.

We were never a partnership Bill, I have no partners. I do not want someone to blindly support me because I do not NEED someone to blindly support me. I rely on my knowledge and intellect, not personal affiliations with people. I will support those who I agree with and I will disagree with those who I don't. It's as simple as that, I do not ally myself with people just because I agreed with them at some point.

It's not personal.

Now that you've had a taste of my A-Game, consider your desperate attempts at disproving me...wait for it...crushed. Do not worry about your failure; if it makes you feel better, you're just like anyone else who's tried to argue with me.

You can try but you cannot defeat the best ever, the greatest of all-time. Good day.

* Edited at 05.20.2013, 4:06 PM ET *

What's Invectus?

@ dielegende23 - Thank you for the thumbs up and kudos.

@Anik Oh this is rich.  You're good.  You think I should feel, wait for it, crushed?  That reminds me of a line from Silence of the Lambs.  Where Dr. Lector says to Clarice.  "Oh Clarice.  Do you think you can dissect me with this blunt tool?  A census taker once tried to test me.  I ate his liver with some fava beans and a fine chianti".

1. Bigger name - You continue to believe that Rousey has the 'bigger' name.  I will say that courtesy of Dana White, it is much bigger now, but only due to White.  

You disparage the hardcores.  I think you are under-estimating the importance of we hardcores (and I include you) to the UFC.  When I use that word, I mean those who buy the UFC events regardless of anything.  I would say we number around 400,000.  It is the hardcores that drive the UFC.  Make no mistake about that.  Without that foundation, the UFC would go out of business.  We buy their events, populate the discussion boards, and keep the flame alive.  

Dana White never tires of telling the world, "We give them what they want."  They are trying desperately to change all that and go after the mainstream American sports fan.  But they have a Looong way to go before they get there, if they ever arrive.  We are a niche sport and the hardcores keep it afloat.

The hardcores want Cyborg vs. Rousey and we don't give a damn at what weight.

2. The hardcores want the fight and the casual fan will watch whatever he is told is relevant by the media and the UFC.  The casual fan is a sheep and easily shorn of his money.  If the hype is there and done right, the grand old ballyhoo works like a charm every time.  Just because the title implications are not there is of little consequence to the diehard fan.  We want what we want when we want it.  Sport & entertainment trumps money.  It's simple and your resistance is futile.

3. Olympics - I'll give a little on this issue.  Sure, an Olympic connection does give a certain certificate of competency.  I had remembered Couture and Coleman but I had forgotten Henderson, Askren and Cormier.  I think Don Frye also has some Olympic connection or other.  

Rousey having Olympic affiliations does help the public believe in her.  But I think it can hinder her in that it might make her believe she doesn't have to build on that one skill and evolve into a more complete fighter.  Sooner or later, she needs to go further, expand and grow.  

4. I will also give some on this issue, too, but weight-cutting can be tricky.  She is already as lean as a bone and to lose more under an expert may or may not be good for her.  Even assuming she no longer uses steroids, it is open to debate whether or not losing an additional 10 lbs. would let her fight better at 135.

Some fighters lost weight and fought at lower divisions but didn't do well.  Ken Shamrock, Wanderlei Silva come to mind, as well as Phil Baroni.  Dan Henderson dropped to MW to fight Jake Shields and did terrible.  

The big issue is whether or not its appropriate for the UFC to coerce a fighter to drop weight.  

5. You avoided my scenario.  If the UFC had opened a 145 lb. women's division after the Carano/Cyborg fight, do you really think that the 135 lb. girls wouldn't have moved up to fight in the UFC?  If the problem is too difficult for you, just say so.  It's a simple enough question.

We see people change divisions all the time.  Sometimes more than one.  Sanchez started at 185, and then 170, then 155, then back to 170 and now down to 155 again.  Kenny Florian is another case.  Look at Anthony Johnson.  

You seem to think that women fighting at 135 would not jump at the chance to fight in the UFC, if they had to change 10 lbs.  What makes sense and what women would do to fight in the UFC are 2 different things.

6.  You are right.  Strikeforce wasn't on PPV.  It was on Showtime.  But they still have numbers, I'm sure.  Your signature issue seems to be who is the more marketable of the two fighters.  

Maybe Rousey is more marketable to the casual, mainstream fan, based on better looks, but so what?  At this moment in time, we really don't have those fans in our pockets yet.  We're trying to get them but we're not there yet.  

Cyborg is much more marketable to the diehard hardcore fan, based on her broader skill set and aggression.  And we do have them in our pockets.  And that makes a big difference.

And besides, if we market this fight right, we can get the casual, mainstream fan, too.  They will get on-board if they are told to in the right way.  The right way includes Profiling them on TV, building the fight up with advertising and letting them know who Cyborg was and still is.

The key is the profiling TV program.  We need to present Cyborg in the gym, at home, interviewing her coaches, sparring partners, her mentors, etc.  Interview the other UFC fighters and profile their opinions.

Those two issues, bigger name and easier marketability seems to be your signature, legacy issues from which you base the rest of your perceptions, Anik.

And strangely, they are the weakest links in Rousey's portfolio.  She is bigger and more marketable since Dana White deemed it to be so, and MADE IT SO, but we hardcores will continue to hold out for the better MMA fighter.

Now you are on record as agreeing with Jay and I that Cyborg deserves this fight and that she will probably beat Rousey.

So, that being so, why quibble about the small change?  Sounds to me like you're one of us, but are too stubborn to change sides.  You are posting like a double agent under cover.

And by the way, your posting now with full power now that you have finally freed yourself from the debris of weakening words.  If only you were fighting in service of a winning argument!

You seem in love with your opinion that you know more MMA than I do.  Well, that may be true of many MMA issues, and is why I don't post on many subjects.  But when you engage me on things I know about, you do not know more than me.  And I will expose you as the dabbler you are.

And guess what?  I do not need partners either.  I DO appreciate my friends and allies though.  Having outlived you by a few years, I understand the value of having a home team.  Your stand-alone stance is vanity, but that is your lesson to learn later in life. 

No one in this house has been more isolated than I, and I have fought alone countless times.  So, when someone treats me right, I return the courtesy.  Your lessons to be learned in the future are legion.

* Edited at 05.20.2013, 5:39 PM ET *

Sorry Bill... I stopped reading that last post when you threw the "400,000 hardcores" statistic out there.  I tried to keep going though, if it makes you feel better.

* Edited at 05.20.2013, 5:45 PM ET *