Topic: Top Welterweights - 170 lbs.
Shields is not a top five welterweight (yet).
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10.25.2010 | 11:26 AM ET
Dream matchup #1 is Shields versus Ben Askren. Dream matchup #2 is Shields versus Hughes.
"Damn right I like the life I live / Cause I went from negative to positive."
Responses
10.25.2010 | 1:13 PM ET
Somewhat disagree.
I have Shields at #3 in my WW rankings, and while I feel he has earned that spot, I do not disagree that there are men below him in the top ten that I would solidly pick to defeat him. When that happens, it will be reflected in my rankings. Until then, I don't think an intelligent argument can be made not to include Shields in the top 5.
And just as a personal dig to you, Jeremy--in good fun--I don't think Diaz belongs anywhere near the top five. Actually, I think he's one of the most overrated fighters in the world.
"When a game cannot be won, change the game."
10.25.2010 | 1:48 PM ET
and if we use your logic about only ranking guys on their accomplishments, skelliher, it wouldn't matter if diaz was overrated. we'd still have to rank him on all the wins he's picking up. i've got him in the middle of where you guys are at.
10.25.2010 | 2:35 PM ET
Trident
"When a game cannot be won, change the game."
10.25.2010 | 3:31 PM ET
"It does not make sense that humans deliberately malfunction. - Upgrade"
10.25.2010 | 3:55 PM ET
good topic
Can't put Shields in front of Koscheck, but being Strikeforce champion and taking out Dan Henderson is worth something. He beat Kampmann even with the messed up weight cut. Next fight he will be in better form and he would probably beat Condit. Condit gets the edge over Kampmann because Kampmann doesn't know how to pull the trigger and finds a way to lose. Condit pulls the trigger and finds a way to win, even though he will probably never beat GSP/Koscheck/Fitch.
Thiago Alves who knows. Looked like **** in his last fight.
Diaz at #8 because like BigJ and others, I think he is overrated. But he definitely beats Matt Hughes. Diego Sanchez maybe beats Nick Diaz but I didn't even have Sanchez on my list until 10 minutes ago, so Sanchez will have to settle for #10 for right now.
I love welterweight!
"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful."
10.25.2010 | 3:57 PM ET
Quality trumps quantity any day of the week. It's one of the few basic laws that should be followed IMO when compiling rankings. It's also the reason Hector Lombard isn't in the Top Ten.
"When a game cannot be won, change the game."
10.25.2010 | 4:01 PM ET
I'm not sure what my top 10 welterweights are going to look like when I click this button. We need to make it so that it gives you an auto-preview of your rankings/pick on the bottom of this form, so you can see it before you start typing. The preview button alone isn't enough.
Thanks for using the site guys.
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10.25.2010 | 5:32 PM ET
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10.25.2010 | 6:11 PM ET
"When a game cannot be won, change the game."
10.25.2010 | 6:19 PM ET
"I live, I die, I live again."
10.25.2010 | 6:22 PM ET
"When a game cannot be won, change the game."
10.25.2010 | 6:56 PM ET
if you compare diaz to someone like thiago alves, purely on paper, diaz has accomplished far more in his career. they both turned pro around the same time, and they both have 7 losses. but more of alves's losses have been via stoppage or complete beatdown. diaz has really only taken one true a$$ kicking in his entire career and that was to noons, which he avenged. i think you get very similar results when you look at paulo thiago, kampmann, sanchez . . . and i think nick diaz beats condit. i think he's a better boxer.
"Damn right I like the life I live / Cause I went from negative to positive."
10.25.2010 | 7:23 PM ET
I do think Diaz is a talented fighter, but I think Hughes (10) would bully the **** out of him, Thiago (9) is a probable win for him, Sanchez (8) already has an unavenged win over him, Condit (7) has the power and range to beat him, Koscheck (6) would do what Hughes would do, Kampmann (5) wouldn't be put away and can handle him on the ground or the feet, although I think that's a close fight, Alves (4) could potentially be picked apart but has the power to annihilate Diaz, Shields (3) would likely do what he does to everyone else, Fitch (2) wouldn't even be a fight, and GSP goes without saying.
All in all, there are a few fighters in that list that Diaz could defeat, but they could just as easily beat him IMO. The fact remains, all of these guys have remained active against one another, while Diaz plays with puffed up lightweights, aging veterans, and irrelevant tournament winners... Oh, and Scott Smith...
"When a game cannot be won, change the game."
10.25.2010 | 10:23 PM ET
"It does not make sense that humans deliberately malfunction. - Upgrade"
10.26.2010 | 6:24 AM ET
Diaz, on the other hand, hasn't fought a top 10 welterweight ... um ... ever? He gets credit for his current streak and some obvious skills, but I see him getting smashed by most of the top WWs in the UFC.
"Any rational society would either kill me or put me to some use."
10.26.2010 | 6:44 AM ET
Believing a fighter has the potential and skill set to challenge the top ten WW is one thing, proving that he belongs there in place of these men is entirely different.
"When a game cannot be won, change the game."
10.26.2010 | 8:47 AM ET
the streak against lytle-parisyan-hughes-koscheck was indeed amazing, and there's not much i have to say in response to that. it's better than any streak diaz has been on. point taken.
but then, when you go back deeper into their careers, alvez has lost 4 other fights by stoppage -- 3 by submission, and 1 by TKO. diaz has never been submitted. and his losses to diego sanchez and karo parisyan were both amazing, back-and-forth fights.
everybody always thinks that when diaz fights a great striker he's going to get smashed. what happened against robbie lawler? he knocked him out. what happened against gomi? he finished gomi. he finished Gleison Tibau, who is super tough. noons is super tough. he beat zaromskis and smith and shamrock, who are not of the same class as the list alves went 4-0 against, but each of those guys is a striking specialist and he beat them almost purely with striking.
i'm not saying diaz would go 7-0 against the seven guys i rank him above in the top 10. he can be beaten, like anybody. i'm just saying, the guy has been a great fighter his whole career and he is the strikeforce champion, there is no question he is at least a TOP TEN welterweight.
anyway . . . i think i'm from stockton in a former life.
"Damn right I like the life I live / Cause I went from negative to positive."
10.27.2010 | 9:14 AM ET
I think this argument basically comes down to a fundamental difference in ranking styles. Like I said, I try to rank fighters as scientifically as possible, and, though it doesn't always work, I do rely on MMA Math to a large degree, while I think you are ranking fighters in terms of who you think is the best. I can't disprove that Diaz is the No. 3 WW in the world, but I believe I have a stronger argument for not ranking him than you do for ranking him.
Ultimately, that's why I think the Tapology rankings will be neat to look at, especially when we have thousands of users in there. There are people who rank fighters like I do, and then there are people who rank fighters according to their potential. Our consensus rankings will have a mixture of both.
Final thoughts on this debate. I'll believe Diaz can handle a top five WW when I see it, otherwise his resume has literally no evidence to support that besides his lack of total dominant losses, which is negligible when you look at his competition.
"When a game cannot be won, change the game."
10.27.2010 | 9:24 AM ET
"Damn right I like the life I live / Cause I went from negative to positive."
10.28.2010 | 9:07 AM ET
my top welterweights
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