SuperFights: How much value do they have?

How much value do you think Super Fights would have for a young sport?  In other sports, many, many of the best competitions never happened.  And the sports world was the poorer for it.  

The boxing community may never see Floyd Mayweather fight Manny Pacquiao?  Would it really be that much of a loss if they never got it?  

The MMA fans never saw Fedor Emelianenko fight Randy Couture or Brock Lesnar.  We did get to see Brock fight Randy and it was interesting if not that competitive.

So here are my questions for the house.

Would you get excited if GSP announced he was moving up to MW to fight Anderson Silva?

If that fight happened, would you get excited if Anderson Silva announced he was moving up to LHW to fight Jon Jones?

If that fight happened, would you get excited if Jon Jones announced he was moving up to HW?

Would you get excited if Renan Barao was moving up to FW to fight Jose Aldo?

Would you get excited if Jose Aldo were to move up to LW?

Besides exciting the fans, do SuperFights really bring that much value to a sport?  Is the sporting element that important?  After all, a sport will go on whether or not the best people ever meet in competition.  

I've heard over and over here that many fans are sick of talk of SuperFights and I wonder how deep that sentiment really goes.

Any thoughts?  Discuss.

* Edited at 08.04.2012, 3:04 PM ET *

I oppose these kind of fights based on a "slippery slope" argument: Start having one-apart weight-class fights, then sooner or later a clamor will arise for a two-apart fight, and so on - and before you know it, we will be right back in the lawless days of the early and mid-1990s (see UFC 8).

So I say let's not go there.

Interesting scenario:

Nick Diaz's suspension expires February 3, 2013.

GSP fights Carlos Condit on November 17, 2012.

Dana White has announced Overeem will face the winner of Cain Velasquez vs. Junior Dos Santos in March 2013.

What would be so hard about scheduling Anderson Silva to fight Jon Jones on the same card as the Overeem vs. winner card, at catchweight of 200 lbs.

And to also schedule GSP to fight Nick Diaz on the same card?

3 Big Fights in March 2013.

With all those powerful drawing cards, it would be a natural to set a new UFC PPV buy record.  I think it would go over the 2 million mark.  Our record is 1,600,000 at UFC 100 with Brock Lesnar vs. Mir, GSP vs. Alves and Fitch vs. Thiago, Henderson vs. Bisping, Coleman vs. Bonnar.

* Edited at 10.20.2012, 2:48 AM ET *

The better option is to build a super card on Fox. It would get the UFC much more exposure. The key would obviously be Fox ACTUALLY advertising the card in advance. If they could throw household names like Jones, Silva, and GSP on the card, they should expect to break at least 10 million viewers. Of course, since Fox has shown no intention of properly promoting UFC events on their network in the past, this option would appear very bleak. 

Nice idea, Sonnens.  Good thinking.  Of course, if the UFC were to consider to play that option, it would create extreme excitement among the fans.  And near frenzy among us hard-cores.  Such advance thinking and planning to build the fan base with the obvious intention of creating more loyal fans for the future is probably giving the UFC too much credit for bold, visionary, risk-taking.

But just to stir the pot a little bit, to create interest and buzz, here is a Bleacher Report article that appeared July 8, 2012, in which the author, Scott Carasik, theorized that the UFC might eventually switch to a different business model and abandon its PPV model.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1251503-ufc-should-transition-to-a-completely-non-pay-per-view-format

Unfortunately, the author made some glaring mistakes.  He leads off saying that UFC 148 on July 7 was its biggest PPV of all time.  It was not.  UFC 100 was.  Mr. Carasik also forgets that the UFC has a contract with Fox TV, so it cannot switch to "UFC on ESPN".

But still Moderator Jeremy has suggested that down the road, after we have established our drawing power on Fox TV, we might then abandon our PPV business model in favor of a network TV business model.  But that is down the road a bit.

But Dana White has already said that he is looking for that very switch.  If he can find the right deal.

But we can dream.

* Edited at 10.20.2012, 4:34 PM ET *

In case anyone is interested in seeing the numbers for the UFC's PPV buys, here is a webpage showing them.

http://www.sportsfungus.com/MMA-box-scores.html?parameters=tempQuery=%20WHERE%20date%20%3E=%20'2008-10-25'%20AND%20date%20%3C=%20'9999-99-99'%20%20AND%20((%20organization%20IN%20(%20'UFC'%20)%20))%20AND%20((%20paid_event%20IN%20(%20'1'%20)%20))%20ORDER%20BY%20date%20%20DESC%20pxsepshowSummaryTable=truepxsepqueryTitle=UFC%20PPV%20Events%20Since%20UFC%2090

* Edited at 10.20.2012, 9:04 PM ET *

Superfights are rare and have an expiration date to them so Dana must work quick. Right know floyd,manny,gsp,silva and jones can make up superfights in combats sports and it looks more and more not to happen, but superfights are never easy to make happen.

Agree the UFC has to make it happen while they can, superfights are rare and these days both sides would demand absurd money!

Anderson Silva is requesting a super-fight and Dana White is playing coy and coquettish like a prim, little virgin.  He won't tell the fans who Silva referred to.  What an imbecile!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1621872-anderson-silva-requests-superfight-is-a-bout-against-jon-jones-looming-next?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=mma

To be frank, I think it's disgraceful for a fighter who was made famous, was made rich, to deny the organization that made them rich and famous a fight the fans have been clamoring for for so long.

The least GSP, Anderson Silva and Jon Jones could do to show their appreciation to their fans and the organization that made them who they are, and gave them their big names, is to fight the fights that the people want to see so badly.

To continue to make excuses, play games, act coy and flirt and skirt the issue is not showing their gratitude to their fans at all.  It's like poking their fingers in the eyes of those who made them who they are.  

For them to get serious and fight the 2 damn fights would seem the minimum they could do.  Otherwise, all their posturing and posing isn't for real. 

* Edited at 04.29.2013, 6:44 PM ET *

Unlike Boxing, MMA doesn't have the alphabet soup of titles and a weight class every 3 lbs which makes super fights a very unlikely possibility. Not only are they unlikely to happen but they don't prove a whole lot. If GSP and Anderson fought and Anderson wins what does it prove other than a dominate big man beats the dominate smaller man. If GSP won against Anderson, or Anderson against Jones, that is the only time we get a significant result. 

The super fight has the possibility of bringing in one mega payday but devalues the overall value of one of the fighters. Especially if a fighter considered vacating a title to make the move as GSP has mentioned. GSP vacating the WW title greatly devalues the WW title for a while to come, not to mention you lose all the GSP vs WW contender money you would have had.  You may give up multiple 600-700,000 ppv buy events each fighter for 1 that will break 1,000,000 buys one time.  On the alternative without vacating the title imagine a 2 division champion greatly slowing down title fights in each division. Again this would cost money in the long run. 

Personally I have never held a lot of interest in these interdivisional matches as other people seem to. For reasons I have mentioned earlier as good as GSP and Anderson are, there physical disadvantage to a dominate champion who is naturally many inches taller and 15-20 lbs heavier that can't be overlooked, and hurts the validity of the fight. This isn't Mayweather v. Pacquiao, where you have two dominate fighters in the same division who have not faced each other. These are 2 fighters that are in different weight classes and as much as we like to speculate and fantasize about what would happen they are in different weight classes for a reason. 

A genuine MMA super fight would have been Pride vs UFC days. What would have happened when Prime Liddell faced a Prime Silva etc. UFC could pull a Pride and manufacture a super fight like Pride did with Mirko vs Fedor. You have 2 extremely dominate fighters in the same division. You intentionally keep them from facing each other, letting a more popular challenger rack up dominate wins sometimes against less than stellar competition so he looks that much more dangerous when he destroys his opponents. If Nick Diaz was actually able to pull out a win vs Condit then you could of have a Super fight with SF/Interim UFC Champ vs UFC Champ. Since Nick lost by the time the rolled around it lost a lot of its luster.  

I don't think we would really miss out on anything if GSP never fought Anderson but I do think we would miss out if we don't see GSP fight Hendrix, or if we don't eventually see GSP or Anderson lose to a fighter within their own weight class.  In the end the only way I would find a super fight really interesting is if the heavier fighter moved down in weight to challenge for a title in the weight class below but that just doesn't happen nor is expected to happen. 

I think what drives the desire for the super fights between GSP/Anderson/Jones is not the desire to see one of them succeed to the point of legend, but to see one of them lose. These guys are destructive and they want them to lose so badly this is the only way to guarantee at least one of them does. People who hate both fighters would tune in just to see one lose. Then they will troll their way into the UG or Sherdog and spend a day laughing and gloating at all the super fans of GSP, or Anderson, or Jones. I think the people who put the most pressure on GSP to move up to fight Anderson are not his fans, they are the people who want to see him lose. Just as the majority of the people who pressure Anderson to move up to Fight Jones really want to see him lose. GSP or Anderson should not be forced nor expected to gain weight simply to satisfy those people obsessed with fantasy matchmaking and what if scenarios. Demanding super fights from guys fighting in division separated by 15+ lbs is a little ridiculous when you think about it. 

Superfights are pointless hullabaloo and empty promises until it's set in stone. If 2 guys are high level enough to a point where them fighting would be considered a "Super Fight" then the chances are they aren't going to want to do it seeing as there's a 50% chance you're going to lose some of your stock which is exactly where GSP is at the moment. The dude is getting roles in movies, multi-million dollar sponsorship deals and knocking down whoever they line up for him in the WW division. He isn't going to risk any of that because he is afraid. Georges admitting that he has fears is his biggest strength and by far his biggest weakness. 

The likelihood of both guys coming to an agreement and the promotion pulling the trigger at the right time is pretty unlikely in most cases. Edgar vs Aldo was one that was put out there and by the time we got it Frankie was coming off 2 losses. The UFC knew they should have set it up when Frankie was king of the division and they missed their chance.

The perfect example in combat sports is obviously Floyd vs Pac. Those morons teased and hinted and promised and lied only for Manny to get brutally knocked out against a guy that everyone expected him to beat. They had one chance and while they'll still make big numbers if they set it up, they won't come close to what they could have made. 

While I would enjoy a fight between GSP vs. Silva, and Silva vs. Jones immensely, that is not the main issue for me.

For me, the big thing is how a dominant champion is bad for the sport of MMA.  Dominance destroys fan interest and is less interesting than if the dominant fighter moved up to fight people as good as them.

If GSP finished his career fighting as a MW, winning most, losing some, it would be a better outcome for him, his career, his legacy, the UFC, and the fans.  Competitive fights are better for MMA than less competitive fights.

If Silva finished his career fighting as a LHW, it would add immensely to fan interest.  As it is now, the WW, MW and LHW divisions do not provide very competitive fights for the dominant champions.  And that is the kiss of death to interest, intrigue, fan involvement, and hosting the best fights possible.

So, the real enemy, for me, is over-dominance over one's peers.  Same thing for Aldo.  MMA would be better off if he fought people more on his own level in LW than him winning lop-sided fights.

For years now, GSP, Anderson Silva, and Jon Jones have been winning lop-sided wins over people they are clearly superior to.

The UFC should exert a little pressure and simply tell those guys that they need to move up and stop letting them do whatever they want to, to the detriment of MMA.  The greater good of MMA is more important than the self-interests of dominant champions.  

* Edited at 04.30.2013, 2:36 AM ET *

Haven't you guys learned that champion vs champion fights will never happen? Too much to lose for all sides. It's just a tool for hyping up other title defenses and to draw interest in general.

@Bill Burgess

Really a dominate champion is bad for the sport? How does a dominate champion destroy fan interest? When you look at the top PPV draws in the UFC today, GSP, Anderson Silva, and Jon Jones, what do these guys have in common... They are the most dominate champions in the UFC. If anything having a dominate champion generates interest in a division. Even going back the other most popular and biggest draws are guys like Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz, and Matt Hughes all dominate champions in their day. 

"If GSP finished his career fighting as a MW, winning most, losing some, it would be a better outcome for him, his career, his legacy, the UFC, and the fans. "


I disagree. I don't think Jumping weight classes helps your legacy and could hurt it in the long run. Look at BJ Penn very dominate fighter at 155. But at 170 he is significantly less effective not because he's fighting more talented people, but because he fighting bigger people. This leads fans to ask what if BJ just stayed at 155 where he belonged how much greater would his legacy be. He was always very effective for about 1 round at 170 then the fact he had to be out of shape to fight at 170 took effect. He would gas out and fade in every fight at 170. Your

For me I would rather see a fighter where he is going to perform his best. If his peers can't keep up that's on them. It up to them to improve to a point where they can match his skills. We don't just make the champion get fatter and more out of shape and fight bigger people until his skill can no longer overcome their size. What does that really prove? Is it really that interesting. If GSP moved up and lost to Yushin Okami how does that make his fights more interesting? If anything it would cause absolute loss of interest in GSP at least when fighting at 185. 

Going back to BJ Penn, People got to a point with Penn that they lost interest in him at 170. Beating him at 170 is not viewed as that impressive. Beating at 155 is impressive, people thought no one could beat him at 155 but Edgar proved them wrong and did it twice. One day that will happen to GSP, Anderson, and Jones if they fight long enough. 

 To sum up Dominate champions are not only good for the sport they are good for business. It is always better for the fans to see a fighter compete at his best, not as a bloated sub par version of themselves. Any move that would negatively effect a fighters performance is not really a move they should make. If there is lack of interest in any particular challenger competing for a title that is on the promoter and the challenger. Titles only gain value by being in the hands of 1 fighter for a long period with many defenses. Jon Jones has made the LHW title valued again. Before that it was Liddell who had made the title valuable. Then it bounced from Rampage to Forrest to Rashad to Machida to Shogun then finally to Jones. Jones has set himself apart and it's up to the other fighters to catch up and figure out how to beat him that is the point of a champion. This is not elementary school not everyone is a winner and not everyone gets a trophy. 

I think high turnover for championships is bad for the sport.

@Bigj Maybe I didn't make the case clearly enough.  In case that's the case, I'll give it another shot.

When I say that dominant champions are not in the best interests of any sport, I'll draw the lines finer.

The best, most interesting fights are the ones where the 2 opponents are the closest in skills and talent.  Where the outcome is completely up in the air and anyone's guess.  The best fights are where both fighters are of comparable quality.  That introduces the unknown factor, mystery, intrigue, even betting odds, and the fans can argue over who's likely to win.

When one guy is favored by 80-20, that destroys intrigue.  The very best thing that GSP could do for his sport and his fans is to go where the opponents are as good as he is, and the outcomes are in doubt.  That would make him a very great sportsman help his sport to be the most that it could be.

In case I haven't convinced you, I will use another example.  Oscar De La Hoya.  Towards the end of his career, in 1999, when he was 26 years old, his record was 31-0!  He could have retired rich and undefeated.  But he made a wonderful decision not to do that!!!  He decided to fight his main rivals, who he had ducked.

He fought Felix Trinidad, Shane Mosely (twice), Bernard Hopkins, Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao.  He lost all 6 fights!  A fan like yourself might get confused and believe that made Oscar less a great fighter.  
But true fans like myself laud him and thank him for giving all of us fantastic fights, and ones that showed who was the best of that time period.

GSP is in that same boat as Oscar De La Hoya.  He could remain in a division where he is dominant, continue to roll up lop-sided wins, and refuse to give the MMA world better, more competitive fights in MW!

Continuing to win as he pleases might make him richer in money but not in competitive greatness.  If he truly wants to fight the best fighters available to him, the best fights are not in WW, but MW, as far as he is concerned.

Of course, it is entirely within his rights and prerogatives to remain a WW.  Fedor Emelianenko made that decision at the end of his career.  He could have opted to come to the UFC and fight Randy Couture and Brock Lesnar.  He declined to test himself against the best available AT THAT MOMENT.  And he retired without ever having gifted the MMA world with those 2 amazing potential fights.  The MMA world cannot get those potential fights back.  Ever.  Mr. Emelianenko, after such a glorious career, simply ran out of balls.

Sports domination in and of itself does a disservice to its fans.  In the 1920, the 2 dominant baseball teams were the New York Giants and the New York Yankees.  From 1921-24, they fought 4 consecutive World Series against each other.  A Subway Series.  It might have been great for NY fans but it was arsenic and cyanide for the rest of the baseball world.  In the 1950, the 3 best baseball teams were the New York Yankees, the New York Giants and the Brooklyn Dodgers.  Once again, good for them, hideous for everyone else.

The UFC would be greatly served if GSP played out his career in MW, Anderson Silva played out his career in LHW.  Jon Jones still has some unfinished business in LHW.  There are still Alexander Gustafsson, Glover Teixiera to dispatch.  And who knows, Maybe Machida or Rashad can find a way to give him a good rematch.  But soon, he needs to start thinking of moving up.  

* Edited at 04.30.2013, 7:44 PM ET *

 A less loquacious counterpoint:

In the case of Anderson Silva it might not be intriguing when he fights inferior fighters  because they aren't always hard to predict, but his fights are arguably and in my opinion the most fascinating to watch because of the dominance he shows in victory. 

@ Bill Burgess - The thing about Superfights is their marketability and intrigue. Take boxing for instance, no we may not get to see Mayweather/Pacquiao, but at this point and time, the fight has lost it's intrigue. There's many fights in boxing that we haven't seen, but look at the ones that we have seen. Dwight Braxton vs. Michael Spinks, Roy Jones Jr. vs. James Toney, Mike Tyson vs. Evander Holyfield, Oscar Dela Hoya vs. Floyd Mayweather, Dela Hoya vs. Bernard Hopkins, Dela Hoya vs. Julio Ceaser Chavez, Aaron Pryor vs. Alexis Arguello, Jeff Chandler vs. Richie Sandoval, Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini vs. Hector "Macho" Camacho, and Marelous Marvin Hagler vs. Sugar Ray Leonard are just a small number of superfights in boxing that many of which broke records as far as PPV buys, attendance, and/or money generated for the weight class of that those fighters competed in.

My thought on superfights is...........if the intrigue is there, the fighters are willing, then it's marketable, so make it happen. I would love to see fights like Jose Aldo vs. Ben Henderson, Anderson Silva vs. GSP or Jon Jones, and Jon Jones vs. Cain Velasquez. I don't know how marketable GSP vs. Ben Henderson would be, but usually GSP's name is on a PPV card, it's guaranteed there will be a milliion PPV buys or close to it.

For myself on the basis of intrigue based on skillset, I'd love to see Anderson Silva vs. Jon Jones, but when it comes to marketability based on PPV buys, you have to go with GSP vs. Anderson Silva. IMHO, superfights help to build a sport and increase revenue. 

@Bill

You can't actually tell how competitive a fight will be until the fighters step in the ring. Sometimes things are close on paper but one fighter gets destroyed sometimes they are not close on paper and it's the best fight of the night.

As for Oscar vs Felix again this is not Oscar jumping weight or Felix jumping weight. Theses were two WW champions of different orgs unifying a title. This fight is closer to Rampagr v Henderson or Bendo vs Melendez. Not Anderson vs GSP.

You don't get superfights in the UFC because fighters don't duck eachother. GSP fights every WW opponent put in front of him. Anderson fights every MW opponent put in front of him. 

Real superfights are only possible when two fighters in the same weightclass duck eachother or a champ ducks a #1 contender for a long time. The superfights like Anderson vs GSP aren't the even fight you are calling for. How that fight
 even when one fighter is so much smaller than his oppinent. 

Maybe when Michael Chandler makes his way to the UFC after dominating everyone Bellator can put in front of him then maybe you can have your "superfight"

If the best pound for pound founders are in close weights classes, fans would love to see the fight. I personally think Jones would destroy Siva at this point. Not sure if this would ever happen. Aldo vs. Bendo?

a

 

I think the only one that really counts is #1 vs #2 so we can have an undisputed #1. You can make the argument that styles make matchups and that #5 could beat #2 or something like that, but #1 vs #2 would be more than enough for me.