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Dropping in competition following losses must end.

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Bill Burgess
Bill Burgess
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06.09.2012 | 4:18 PM ET

Whenever I hear that someone lost a fight, therefore they must be dropped down in competition to get them some soft wins to build them back, I cringe.

That comes very close to fight-fixing.  Not in the overt sense, but in arranging to have expected results.  Much too political for my tastes.  If we notice that over 80% of our members favor a fighter, then we should question if that fight is a setup to get someone's record padded to build them up.  If a guy loses, he should not be dropped down.  That is bad.  If the UFC is arranging fights with expected results, is that not manipulating the rankings?

The UFC should NOT, NOT, NOT be in the business of building anyone UP.  It should try hard to find someone of as close to comparable toughness as possible.  The best matches pit guys of equal quality against each other.  Of course, that is not always possible, but that is the goal, the aim, the quest.  

If Shogun must be dropped down to rebuild him, he is washed up.  I say he is NOT washed up, doesn't deserve to be insulted with Vera, and is still deserving of Rashad Evans.  Give him someone like Stephan Bonnar maybe.  Someone who will still give him a really tough fight.  NO SOFT FIGHTS!  Padding his resume with easy competition is immoral, unethical and ********.  Same as forcing Fitch to fight mid-tier guys who can't build his case for #2.  TOTAL ********!!!

* Edited at 06.09.2012, 7:11 PM ET *

"Love God, live with honor, keep your agreements."

Responses Page 3

Bill Burgess
Bill Burgess
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06.10.2012 | 1:51 PM ET

Why isn't Shogun being offered Alexander Gustafsson?  I believe Alex is available, isn't he?  And he would make for a quite reasonable, credible, appropriate match for Mauricio Rua.  

That would not represent a drop down to the mid-tier, show Shogun some respect, and not force an unfair loss on Vera's record.  Why use poor Vera as the sacrificial lamb, when a much more appropriate candidate is available?  This is the kind of crap that I'm lobbying against.  

If the fight with Brandon Vera is scheduled for August 4 at UFC on Fox, Gustafsson last fought on April 14, so he should be well-prepared.

Will anyone join me in this Quest?

* Edited at 06.10.2012, 1:56 PM ET *

"Love God, live with honor, keep your agreements."

jaffacakehero
jaffacakehero
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06.10.2012 | 2:19 PM ET

Why risk derailing the young contender who probably has the best chance of beating Jones by giving him a short notice fight against one of the most dangerous fighters in the division?

Why?!

"If you're matched up against me, you better be prepared to give your life...because I am prepared to take it. - Conor McGregor"

Bill Burgess
Bill Burgess
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06.10.2012 | 2:48 PM ET

That's a fair question.  So far, I haven't heard any talk about the UFC offering Alex a title shot.  We all assume one is coming, but that might be after another fight.  So, in the meantime, why not a fight with Shogun?

It doesn't have to be short notice.  The UFC had the ability to schedule it a little later, didn't they?

A tough fight with a true contender would tell us all just how far along Alex is in his development towards a title shot.  So far, Alex hasn't had a test against the top tier, yet, with the exception of Phil Davis, which he lost.

Alex has not been tested against Evans, Henderson, Rampage, Shogun, Machida.  The Top Tier.  So, what's so untoward about giving Alex a contender fight against Shogun.  

It would assure us that Shogun is still top tier, that Alex is ready to battle at the highest level, and be an exciting, competitive, even match.

Who else are you going to use to show Alex is ready for Jon Jones?  Who else are you going to use to show Shogun is still top level?  

Is giving Alex a tune-up for Jones really a wasted fight, or a great, competitive, totally useful match?

* Edited at 06.10.2012, 2:48 PM ET *

"Love God, live with honor, keep your agreements."

Crumx7
Crumx7
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06.10.2012 | 2:49 PM ET

Bill just never quits does he

"If you think about it, life is your one big chance" Follow @CRUMxMMA on Twitter

Bill Burgess
Bill Burgess
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06.10.2012 | 2:56 PM ET

Another question:  Just what would a Vera/Shogun fight prove.  Would a decisive win over Vera prove how well he would do against Jones, Machida, Evans, Henderson, Rampage or  Gustafsson?  Will it show anything?  And if not, why make the fight?


One man's principled tenacity is another man's willful stubbornness.  It all depends if you like the person or agree with his opinion.

The main thing is to spar with respect and to conduct oneself as a gentleman.  What value is sports chat if it causes one to beat someone up or hurt another's feelings.  Sports was supposed to make one feel better.  Otherwise, one is taking it too seriously and sports had better not exist.

* Edited at 06.10.2012, 3:01 PM ET *

"Love God, live with honor, keep your agreements."

Kpro
Kpro
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06.10.2012 | 2:59 PM ET

I completely get Bill's point from a sports perspective, MMA just happens to lean more business than sport because the UFC can.  And I'm not saying I agree with that, but it's the way it is and as fans there's nothing we can do to change that.  Boycott?  Good luck.   I do think contracts have more to do with this than anything else though for leverage in negotiations.  We're not huge fans of a sport that has a pre-set schedule yearly.  If Ray Lewis gets injured they don't cancel the week 11 game of the Ravens @ Steelers.  The only comparison we have on a mainstream (or near) level is boxing and they're worse than MMA at doing what the OP implies.  If there were no tuneup fights, we would've never seen some mid-level guys who made their name in these fights and ended up fighting for titles.  

MMA for each promotion is a delicate and dynamic balance of assets.

"I Stab Waterbeds!"

TraeBlack
TraeBlack
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06.10.2012 | 3:01 PM ET

I would rather see Shogun vs Glover/Mauler. Shogun vs Vera is the dumbest thing i have ever heard of. I dont think Shogun is ducking Glover, but why take a fight thats pretty much a gimme win for Shogun, and not take a fight thats gonna challenge him. Glover isnt the best thing since sliced bread, but i think he would put up more of a fight then Vera will. Just my opinion tho.

"3HUNNA"

Kpro
Kpro
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06.10.2012 | 3:05 PM ET

I'm going to offer a perspective that may not be popular or right but it's my opinion.

I absolutely love when there is an MMA fight that is a "rebound-easy-win" fight for one fighter because if they lose, I'm either going to make bank on their next fight, or their opponents next fight because of how the moneylines will swing.

"I Stab Waterbeds!"

Bill Burgess
Bill Burgess
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06.10.2012 | 3:20 PM ET

Alright, gentlemen.  Given the solid posting of Kpro, Mike Loves, Cash, Gasto, Wish, Jaffa, Stealing, AnikM, etc., I will make some concessions.

While still strongly supporting my opening position, I will concede that some of the wrong matches had some good results.  Good came out of wrongful thinking.

Some examples:  Hendricks/Fitch should not have been made, but it did give Hendricks a big push.  But I think he would have fought his way up the natural way if they had let that happen.  They rushed it.  They hurried him along.

Charlie Brenneman was matched with Rick Story prematurely but won the fight.  They rushed Charlie but it had a nice ending.  For Charlie.  Not so much for Rick.  He lost to Hendricks, and was given Story for his 4th fight.  A little hasty.

At the age of 30, the UFC finally gave Brian Ebersole a shot.  They gave him tough Chris Lytle for his very 1st fight.  A pretty tough assignment, but Brian beat him in a UD.  Nice result for Brian.  And he's won 2 more since.  

So, it's not like I can't see the possibilities, but the effort to match equal fighters if possible should still be the goal.

* Edited at 06.10.2012, 3:28 PM ET *

"Love God, live with honor, keep your agreements."

Bill Burgess
Bill Burgess
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06.10.2012 | 3:25 PM ET

If anyone has the money to bet, they might be tempted to bet on the 'rebound, easy, soft fights'.  But the problem will be that the Vegas oddsmakers will not give you a good betting line for the odds.  It will be hard to cash in with the odds so stacked against you.

Vera/Shogun might be as much as 6-1 for Shogun.  So you might have to bet 6 bucks to make 1.  Tough way to make a windfall.  And if you lose, . . . 

"Love God, live with honor, keep your agreements."

Kpro
Kpro
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06.10.2012 | 3:31 PM ET

$126 won me $60 on Glover over Kingsbury.  It may sound risky as I usually never touch anything over -200 but I never even had to sweat to make the money to buy myself 10 of the 60 minutes with a $300 escort for the hour.  Glover was responsible for 10 of those minutes, so I thought about him during it.

"I Stab Waterbeds!"

Bill Burgess
Bill Burgess
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06.10.2012 | 3:34 PM ET

Oh Geez!  Good grief, Kpro!  That's private!  

Since when did MMA mean umm, umm, aahhhh.

* Edited at 06.10.2012, 3:36 PM ET *

"Love God, live with honor, keep your agreements."

Kpro
Kpro
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06.10.2012 | 3:37 PM ET

I thought we were baring our souls.

"I Stab Waterbeds!"

wolfmanhowl
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06.10.2012 | 3:38 PM ET

shogun -400 vera + 325. it won't be -600.
jaffacakehero
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06.10.2012 | 3:43 PM ET

First Bill argues that mid tier opponents should not be matched up with top tier ones coming off of losses

The he argues that Gustafsson should be given an opportunity against Shogun who is coming off of a loss which completely goes against his original statement and overall point of this thread

Also "Good came out of wrongful thinking"

No sir,good came out of those decisions because they were the right ones.

Do you honestly think the UFC is this successful from making wrong decisions? No.

"If you're matched up against me, you better be prepared to give your life...because I am prepared to take it. - Conor McGregor"

Bill Burgess
Bill Burgess
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06.10.2012 | 3:55 PM ET

First of all, I think that all members on this discussion board would agree that Alexander Gustafsson is Top Tier right now.  Do you disagree?  If so, I respectfully beg to differ.  Alex IS Top Tier.  NOW.

I don't know what to make of you, Jaffa.  You discuss well, but you seem to have this surly, snide, condescending chip on your shoulder, at least where I am concerned.

I, too, am making a mighty effort to hold back, remain respectful, and not get testy.  But you are pushing me and I'm trying to spar friendly.  

I think the UFC is sucessful for many reasons.  Dana White has a lot to do with it.  

But the main reason is that MMA is the most interesting, hottest thing going.  I realize that other MMA organizations couldn't make a go of it, so I do give the UFC a lot of credit for making a LOT OF GOOD DECISIONS.

Why do you think I'm so in love with the UFC?  Why do you think I'm here?  I don't hate it, as you make me out to be.  I love it and am trying to help it get even better.  They have made a lot of mistakes, too.  Honest ones to be sure.  But since when are fans not loyal if we want it to avoid mistakes, as we see them.

You do me wrong, sir.  You ascribe to me a lot of things which I am not.  I am a loyal, sincere, tenacious fan of the UFC.  You need to recognize tenacity, even when you disagree with it.  If you took the time to get to know me, I'm not half the ******* that you think.  If I was, I'd kill myself now.


* Edited at 06.10.2012, 6:17 PM ET *

"Love God, live with honor, keep your agreements."

Brazilian Jitz
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06.10.2012 | 3:57 PM ET

I would put Gustaffsson in the same spot  as Hendricks before the Fitch Ko and the Silva DEC win

* Edited at 06.10.2012, 3:58 PM ET *

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Anik
Anik
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06.10.2012 | 4:36 PM ET

I wouldn't, I have Gustafsson at like...the Johny Hendricks ranking of now.

"الله أكبرl"

Crumx7
Crumx7
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06.10.2012 | 5:33 PM ET

"First of all, I don't think that there is a single member on this discussion board that wouldn't agree that Alexander Gustafsson is Top Tier right now.  Is that your belief?  If so, I respectfully beg to differ.  Alex IS Top Tier.  NOW."


Is that a complete contradiction or is it me?  You said that not a single member on the board wouldn't disagree that Gustafsson is top tier.  Then you say you beg to differ with him being top tier, then you said Alex IS Top Tier? I don't get it

"If you think about it, life is your one big chance" Follow @CRUMxMMA on Twitter

Bill Burgess
Bill Burgess
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06.10.2012 | 6:12 PM ET

It was a typo.  I typed it incorrectly. I corrected it.  My point is that I believe all of us would agree that Alex is Top Tier right now.
My mistake.  Sorry about that, Crum

* Edited at 06.10.2012, 6:13 PM ET *

"Love God, live with honor, keep your agreements."


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